The Problem with Turning Beer into Dessert

Von Trapp, Jack's, OEC, and Notch are doing it right. I support them a bunch. I agree that OEC is expensive. Tasty stuff though. I'm not that familiar with NEBCO and Counterweight. Have you had anything from Schilling? They are doing it right too.

 

No, but I have heard good things about them. I don't think they are available locally, but when I am in Maine this summer I might be able to find some.

Counterweight has been a NEIPA factory since they opened, but also does an excellent range of pilsners, lagers, saisons, and wild ales as well. I think they also make a few fruity berliner weiss-style beers. Nebco has always been an IPA factory, but they never chased the NEIPA craze and they also have an amazing depth of style. If you can name a style they have probably taken a stab at it at some time or other. I am a total Nebco fan boy, though, so take my opinion for what it's worth. They have shared DNA as the owner of Counterweight used to be the head brewer at Nebco.

I think one of the reasons that Nebco and Counterweight are so good, in my opinion, is that they have their mass produced flagships, but everything else still on a fairly small scale. They do distribute some of their brands, but the majority are brewery only in the form of bottle, can, and growler sales.

 

But why? What's the difference between a perversion and an evolution?

My only problem is continuing to call it an IPA. I understand that its derivative of the same tradition but it no longer seems to even aim at any of the characteristics that have defined the IPA going back a couple centuries (which is of course a huge target range) so I'd think a name change is in order.

 

I'd just like to chime in that I completely agree with this re: a change of nomenclature. An 'IPA' whose taste characteristics are intentionally brewed counter to the (already) wide-ranging style characteristics isn't an IPA; it's something else. That isn't an value judgement of the beer itself - provided that the beer is considered as a blank slate. If it is to be considered an IPA however, then to me criticism is valid.

 

If you were going to draw out some sort of approachability spectrum for IPAs, with the classic WCIPA firmly towards one end, and these low bitterness, hazy IPAs towards the other, then you're going to find HF in the middle. I mean SH intentionally went out to create IPAs that were "soft". No they are not on the extreme end (though they have shifted further in that direction over time - a 2011 Double Citra vs a present day one are two very different beers) - who gets to draw the line between childish and acceptable?

 

Again, these types of "beers" get more butts in seats. Hops aren't enough/are too much to make a beer palatable for some people. Thus lactose, flowers, cereals, snack cakes, sour cream and purees are the other options. Some of these may have some child-like nostalgia memory too.

 

I was just thinking of iocaine this morning. You should be worried.

I think you are overestimating the tastefulness of craft beer marketing of the past. But, there certainly is an increased amount of marketing today that is designed to mirror marketing aimed at children.

Predictably, we'll have to agree to disagree... but the very act of agreeing to disagree highlights the issue with your position. People agree to disagree on the assessment of everything that you are describing - and not just with regard to what is "better" music, but even with potentially more concrete scenarios like defining an IPA. In my opinion, you are overestimating the integrity and applicability of your "objective metrics" when it comes to determining "better." Surely you can see its limitations. Is a John Waters movie with "gratuitous humor, incoherent plot, and bad pacing" an inherently worse movie than any movie that avoids those supposed issues?

You tend to utilize examples that are far away from each other - Beethoven vs Bieber, or IPA vs bourbon (and I get why it helps to do so when communicating your argument), but how well does your argument hold up when comparing things closely related (such as determining which Jackson Pollock painting is the "better" painting)? Casablanca might be on multiple people's lists of "the best movies ever made," but does it rank in the same spot on every list? You are focusing on identifiable "flaws" to make determinations, but what happens when you need to compare two songs that do not "lose tempo" etc (let's just pretend that that's even a sensible metric )?

Oddly enough, just this weekend I was in a discussion on this site about whether a specific beverage was a beer or a spirit. I wasn't expecting a clear answer in this case (and there wasn't), and one could certainly find some similarities with that particular beverage and bourbon. Not that I'm arguing for a scenario where a bartender hands me a bourbon when I ask for a beer. But recall that you stated: "Things are not black or white" ... and generally speaking, don't forget to apply that philosophy to your rigid architecture thoroughly.

I'm sorry if it feels like I'm just needlessly adding to a dialogue that is trying to tear down your argument. Given the nature of your posts, I imagine that you're cool with with some pushback like this. I'm just trying to engage in friendly debate.

 

hahaha I'm glad someone picked up on that!

 

Well, maybe it makes YOU and maybe some others sad, but I suspect it makes the fans of slushy styles verrrrry happy. They have every right to as pleased about a beer becoming or remaining available as you do. No one is any more worthy of being happy about the availability of a beer than anyone else, and I don't even know what "selling out" is supposed to mean other than someone's somewhat arrogant appraisal of which motivations and decisions by brewers are sufficiently worthy or defensible.

 

If fans of slushy 'beers' are happy because classic styles are being discontinued so they can have more of their fad-of-the-moment beer cocktails...they are not beer advocates. Craft beer advocacy being, after all, the ethos of this site.

 

I thought this was going to be a Thread on Chocolate ice cream milk stout floats!

 

It's definitely likely that I'm not aware of some crass craft marketing of yore , can you share some examples of early tasteless marketing? Seems like all the old guard packaging was very conservative and tasteful from what I've seen

 

I too think the aforementioned beer styles are ridiculous. My question to those who like them, is how many of these do you drink in a sitting/day. I don’t dabble with the milkshake/smoothie IPA or the fake ass “sours” because i think they are stupid. But they look like they are 800 calories each and that about 4 oz would completely fill me up.

 

Maybe you stumbled onto the wrong site. I fing nothing in the online description of BA that either emphasizes or even mentions "craft" beer. Admittedly many posts are about craft beer but it is not the stated objective of this site. Furthermore,There is a huge difference between celebrating the elimination of traditional beer style (s) to accomodate a slushy and being happy the slushy is newly available. Isuspect most slushy fans fall into the later group. I think it is pretty judgmental to proclaim who is or is not a beer advocate.

 

We may disagree on the merits of dessert beers, but it’s pretty obvious in hindsight I worded that poorly. I agree it’s poor form to imply criticism of other’s beer advocacy.

 

Cantillon and 3F are horrendous examples. They are hyper niche breweries, and two of a literal handful of European breweries that American BAs would consider as making a sought after product not available domestically. Domestically there are also a very limited number of breweries (thinking locally of Suarez, who to the best of my knowledge have yet to make an IPA, hazy or otherwise) that have the reputation/history/niche, that they can solely brew stuff that "they love" - good for them. Seriously. Most breweries don't have that luxury.

I am not overly familiar with Cellardoor. I don't know when they discontinued Famille or why, or if they truly are making "vulgar" decisions. But generally speaking the last year especially has been hard on breweries. And although an alien reading BA could easily get the sense that breweries are charities, believe it or not they are businesses who need/want to make enough $$$ to cover overhead, wages, etc, and hopefully leave enough to make a modest profit for the owners. Hopefully.

Since you are familiar with OH, then I'm guessing you may also know of Threes? Either way - anyone who does know of them would probably agree that a) they have adapted well during the pandemic, and b) they have managed to navigate the last year (and prior based on changing trends) with minimal compromise to their integrity/vision. I was speaking to someone that works there last week. They do make hazy IPAs, but anyone that's had them would agree they stay firmly on the right side of the "beer that tastes like beer" (no tose, other additions; ABVs that generally stay under 8%; definite presence of a hop bite, etc) line. Their passion/niche is on the lager side; foudre-fermented ones in particular. The guy I spoke to said that for every pint of the entire non-IPA portfolio they sell (they also make mixed ferm beers, stouts, barleywines [latter two not remotely pastry though], they sell 2.5 pints of IPA. On top of that despite a much longer production process, the foudre-fermented lagers have to be sold at a lower price point than IPAs due to perception/consumer expectations. So if you're trying to be a successful business why wouldn't you go 100% in the direction of the beers that are cheaper/quicker to make, that can be sold more easily and at a higher price point?

If you want more breweries making the Familles of the world, then start posts about how f'ing good those beers are, why they're good, why you love them, etc. Vs posts about "vulgar" breweries/consumers making/buying beers you don't like.

 

It feels like "craft beer" has made improvements with moving away from crass marketing focused on masculinity and femininity that at one time felt like the unfortunate par for the course for some in that corner of beer culture. I'm thinking of the beer names that equated the color of the beer (blonde, brown) to the color of a woman's hair or skin (and sometimes in a clearly sexualized way)... and the old "panty dropper" type names, etc. There was a small, local brewer by me who often went down this type of path with their beer names. They are no longer in business. I'd prefer to not get more specific with examples, but there are probably plenty of articles online about this if you want to dig some up.