Tired Hands (2021)

So what solution do you have to stop unconscious bias. I figure the word unconscious means I do it without thinking. So how do I stop this evil force in my mind. I guess I just wonder what the endgame is. Tired hands is Jean it’s his beer, art, and ideas so maybe the brewery should just be closed. Or maybe in this thing called the free market people will buy the beer or they won’t succeed. I just personally felt this board was far more helpful as a consumer when you could just talk beer. When I drank Brooklyn I never thought wow this if a fine African American brewed lager just damn this is good beer. I guess the toxic political environment in our country has funneled to all aspects of life.

 

That's a great, and fair, question and I hope I can help. Unconscious bias is a new-ish concept in that it's only been seriously studied for a decade or two.

1. That being said, we know for sure that unconscious bias exists (both in a "hard" way a la neuroscience, and in a "soft" way a la studies demonstrating it having an impact in real-world situations). There's no need to roll your eyes at this "evil force in your mind," as it most certainly exists.

2. What to do about it is much less clear. Some studies earlier on that indicated merely being aware of unconscious bias and undergoing training seminars etc would combat it to some degree. More recent research calls into question that approach. Personally, I think it's a pretty ineffective tactic based on my research. That being said, it won't stop "training" as the go-to response (there's a lot of money to be made in inclusion and diversity programs that fight against unconscious bias). Still, education is never a bad thing even if the results aren't quite there.

Either way... downplaying the impact of racism and biases (conscious or unconscious) certainly isn't the way to go. It impacts the market, and it impacts how people treat others... whether we like it or not.

We're all here to enjoy the craft beer scene and to make it better for others. Doing so means different things to different people. You're more than welcome to your preference to just talk about beer (obviously), but I hope you can understand why given this, in a public forum, people aren't necessarily entitled to just hear about hops and barley... as clearly there are plenty of relevant factors in the craft beer scene (and factors that might improve the scene) otherwise. Hope that helps!

 

Very well stated post but I have to jump right to point 2. So we’re positive the bias exists just have no solution. I guess what’s the point of fighting something you say you can’t stop but your 100% positive exists. I guess the last year has taught me that people are sure that things are correct and exist until they don’t. It’s like people who say follow the science but if the science changes by the day why would I follow it.

 

Thanks for hearing me out. Yes, like I said, all the science and data we have presently tells us it exists -- so there isn't any need for you to cast doubt on that like you do later in your comment. If additional, reputable research comes out tomorrow casting doubt on this, please let me know! I'll be happy to take it into consideration and weigh it against the the previous evidence and balance my opinion accordingly. That's how science works.

In fact, that's exactly what's already happened. Like I said, for years the prevailing wisdom -based on okay studies- was that "training" effectively helped. That was my view, accordingly. Research came out casting (some) doubt on this. My opinion changed accordingly.

Your last sentence is just unnecessary hyperbole. The science isn't changing every day. It's shifting in small ways over a long period of time. Your opinion can evolve with it, without you being filled with regret someday that you "believed" in unconscious bias for a decade, or whatever. This sounds like a faux-concern.

This is a (former) area of expertise of mine when I studied the subject in-depth in the context of employment and civil rights law so I'm happy to jump in when it comes up... and I'm also well-aware of how it sounds like "made up evil forces in your mind" and have spent a long time dispelling those notions lol. We're getting pretty far away from Tired Hands though, so I don't want to distract too much... feel free to PM me if you're genuinely curious (no offense taken if not).

Hope that new saison turned out nicely -- a witbier in red wine puncheons seems like an odd combo.

 

I wouldn't try to conflate the issues being discussed here with the pandemic as you're going to get even further away from talking about just beer.

 

This is a good article on the issue and the difficulties.
Training is part of it, but the training isn't uniform so sure, effectiveness is always an issue. Moreover, I imagine how seriously a person takes it matters. You sit there and click thru a website or sleepwalk thru a presentation, sure it won't.

But I think mainly, for now, it shows there is real world value in diversity for diversity's sake. Perhaps if your company's upper echelon is dominated by people exactly like you, and most lucrative positions in your company (BOH staff vs brewers or FOH staff) are practically devoid of minorities and women that's on you. Maybe at some point, Jean and his wife could've taken a step back and looked at their staffing and pay structures and recent disciplinary actions and asked themselves whether there were discrepancies or issues. Better yet, if you're selling that much beer, take on a consultant to look over things and interview staff etc to see blind spots and prevent this whole blowup. But see, classically, Jean strikes me as the type who never has experienced consequences. So why be introspective? Why spend the money? Why make yourself feel uncomfortable? Just take some edibles, down some 8 percenters, and berate your own employee in the middle of the workday. Who's going to stop you? I mean, did you see the line outside for the milkshake IPA? Heck Founder's has done great despite ignoring a consultant they brought in (who quit because of their unresponsiveness) and they've been just fine even after settling a very serious case a black employee brought.

And it is a free market. This is capitalism. If your behavior is abhorrent and I decide to take my business to another brewery, why is that so bad? Those complaining about "canceling" Jean and his wife (or whatever other brewery owner) tend to be quite enthusiastic about capitalism. Well nothing is free. Sometimes you sell $26 milkshake IPAs, sometimes you have to rework your business structure because you're a self absorbed sexist and racist who should've stuck to the creative side and known your limits.

 

I read your posts and don't call you names or make assumptions about you. To be honest your just some random dude from Virginia who couldn't trade Virginia beer and moved up here to do just that. You seen to know it all and we should listen to you while preach from your self serving high horse.

Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house bro.

 

Don't you know there's no operating costs in craft beer!?

 

When TH is selling all their packaged beer direct to consumers and charging similar or even higher prices than similar beer from similar size breweries being sold through the three-tier distribution system, they have to be making significant profit.

Rough numbers - if both the distributor tier and retailer tier each normally have a 30% markup, and other breweries have a small profit built into their wholesale price, then its likely TH's cost is less than 50% of their retail prices. If theyre selling $100k of cans a week, thats $50k of profit a week, or a couple million a year. So unless the restaurant or other side projects were losing significant money, I dont think its crazy to assume that the owners have pocketed a few million dollars of either cash (or owner equity) so far even after debt service.

 

Yes I definitely agree with everything you said, but a few million dollars of profit doesn't sound like Shaun Hill's small stake is now worth significantly more than $1.5m, which he claims.

I'm sure they're doing great but math is math. 112 employees making an average of $50k a year = $5.6m alone

 

I don’t mean to sound like a snob, but a business owner making “millions” off of their small-medium sized business in a major urban area truly shouldn’t surprise anyone, a few million isn’t some measure of obscene wealth by any means lol.

I feel like the people surprised by this are operating off of generalizations from the 90s or something.

 

A few million dollars in total may not be an obscene amount of wealth to many people, but it is far more than most Americans will ever accumulate during a lifetime.

A million (or even less) a year is probably more than 96 - 98% of Americans make in a year.

But I do understand your point. Wealth is relative. In the metro-Boston area here in Massachusetts, the kind of money you are talking about seems almost commonplace.

 

To your point though I will say Tired Hands up to this point (as an overall business venture) has proved to be a very successful venture, didn't seem to over stretch, got into seltzer and coffee. Two restaurants etc. At this point, prior to ratmagnet's posts, Jean and Julie had a VERY comfortable future and at worst could've sold it for a lot of money based on the health of the business. That's far more than most people their age can say, even in metro areas. Course people buy $50k parking spots in Boston so I see the other end of things.

 

Isn’t accusing somebody of racism a slanderous and terrible thing (even if you suggest they’re doing it unconsciously) if they are actually innocent.

Tired Hand could very well be making decision based on individual merit and their own judgement of what is best for the company unclouded by any biases. Yes don’t downplay the possibility of racism as a potential cause but isn’t it worse to falsely accuse someone of racist motives when you know you are making judgements based on an incomplete understanding of the situation?

 

Thanks for your concern, but it sounds like you may have misunderstood my comments (in a number of ways).

1. I’m not accusing Tired Hands or any individual there of acting on a basis of implicit bias, I’m speaking about the phenomenon in general.

2. We all have unconscious biases to some degree, necessarily, and we all act on them in some ways. Your idea of some pure meritocracy being in place at Tired Hands is a little silly... considering that this concept doesn’t exist in reality due to our inherent biases, experiences, and systemic issues outside of our control.

3. Your concern over someone being “falsely accused of racism” is misguided. “Racism” is definitely a tricky word and I understand why it would trigger this response from you, but some types of “racism” are different and far more harmful than others. On my personal scale of judgment, “implicit biases” are pretty benign. We’re all guilty of them to some degree, so “accusing” someone at a brewery of possibly making a decision or a series of decisions based on implicit racism isn’t anything like giving them a scarlet “R,” it’s just acknowledging a potential cause for a bad outcome so that it can be better combatted going forward. It seems like you have me confused with someone who just wants an individual labeled as “a racist” as if this is some black-and-white label in a world where there’s two types of people (racists and non-racists, bad and good), and that simply isn’t the case.


I hope that clarifies a little and, once again, in an effort not to clog up the thread I’d prefer if people just PM me if they want to discuss lol... I’m fine with this but I don’t want to annoy others.

 

All this talk of racism in the Tired Hands thread but you aren’t directing it at Tired Hands but it is silly to suggest maybe they made decisions based on individual merit.

 

That’s correct, they certainly didn’t make decisions based purely on individual merit (I’m sure it was a big part of their process, hopefully at least!). But cognitive biases necessarily impact the decisions we make on some level, and that factor gets multiplied in a system ie a business like Tired Hands making many decisions.

I don’t mean to be dismissive, but honestly it would probably be a better use of everyone’s time if you looked at the wiki for what I’m referring to before jumping in to discuss... probably best for me to drop the convo at this point as I’m not particularly interested in explaining the 101s of this to someone who doesn’t sound interested in learning and distracting further from the brewery discussion. Cheers, and feel free to PM if you have any sincere questions about this concept.

 

If you're honestly curious, this is all the way back from 2015. I'm doubtful you will read it but maybe someone with concerns will.
The reality is Jean and Julie have even more responsibility to examine things because they are employers and responsible for hiring, firing, disciplining, and setting conduct/ workplace culture standards. It seems clear from the stories and tacit admission of issues that they did not fulfill their obligations and there are serious questions about whether minorities and women were getting a fair shake at the company.

 

From my perspective.. a Tired Hands customer longer than most of you have been Beer Advocates is that they actively tried to hire women and minorities more so than any other local. If Jean and Julie fail because of this then their employees will also most certainly fail.

 

Does it count though if they treat them like garbage?