Barleywine Appreciation Thread (2022)

zid · Jan 6, 2022

chipawayboy said: ↑

Question for all you Barleywine gurus - Harvest Ale is my top o’ the mountain English BW - I’ve had more vintages and variants than any other. I had this 1988 vintage in 2019 and it was in absolute top form - describing it as a complex mesh of sweet/dark fruits and a finish tasting like emulsified dust from my grade school Rawlings baseball glove (Mike Schmidt signed - a truly endearing reference!). Anyway - I see that Harvest Ale has been commonly released throughout the years with different labels (see alt version of my prized 88 bottle below). I’ve also noticed some very old vintages showing up at my local over the past few years in what appears to be brand new packaging. Anybody know JW Lees release protocols? It’s seems they keep some amount of beer in long term storage after initial packaging for future bottle and keg release. Is this a measurable thing or totally ad hoc? Cheers all - best BA thread in a long time.

Click to expand...

It's an amazing beer. I assume B United is a big factor with the items you are bringing up. Beers for export might have different labels. I've never seen old vintages in new labels but maybe I just wouldn't notice. Can you get a pic? B United has old vintages of the beer in their supply... and it appears that Lees stores beer as well. What was perplexing to me was when B United canned old batches of Harvest and various versions of the variant cask aged editions in the US. How is JW Lees storing all this beer for years if it's then going into a tanker and being canned in the US??? I'd love to know if anybody has this info.

chipawayboy · Jan 6, 2022

zid said: ↑

It's an amazing beer. I assume B United is a big factor with the items you are bringing up. Beers for export might have different labels. I've never seen old vintages in new labels but maybe I just wouldn't notice. Can you get a pic? B United has old vintages of the beer in their supply... and it appears that Lees stores beer as well. What was perplexing to me was when B United canned old batches of Harvest and various versions of the variant cask aged editions in the US. How is JW Lees storing all this beer for years if it's then going into a tanker and being canned in the US??? I'd love to know if anybody has this info.
Click to expand...

Here’s a 2002 vintage I bought at a large Boston chain sometime post pandemic. Looked brand new on the shelf. Tasted fantastic.

Ranbot · Jan 6, 2022

I prefer English Barleywines fresh, but American Barleywines are one the few styles I really enjoy aging. So I like both for different reasons.

zid said: ↑

Sorry for the long post. This will probably come across as a rant but I promise it isn't meant to read like one.

The two so-called styles do not work as rigid black and white things even though people talk about them as if they were. If one just drinks Bigfoot and Fuller's Vintage Ale (never mind that that beer is classified here as an "old ale" for unknown reasons... but I'm picking an English beer one can actually buy in the US), then that drinker will surely think that the American and English beers are certainly different styles. But Bigfoot and Fuller's Vintage are just two specific beers on various ends of the spectrum and do not represent all of the shades of beers that can be in the barley wine camp. If the classification here insists on dividing between two barley wine styles, then going by something as subjective as reading beer reviews will not be a good way of dividing all of the beers that exist between the two extremes. One should look at what the brewer calls it, the ingredients used, and the country of origin for something more black and white to go along with this black and white method of classification.

Hop choice is the clearest and common distinction used by people to differentiate such beers. Looking at the beers in the above posts - The hops in Black Hog Brewing Bacchanalian Barleywine are Cascade, Bravo, US Goldens, Centennial, Willamette and the beer is (to use the brewer's word's) "an orgy of American and British Malts, Hops, & Yeast." Tree House Tree of Life uses "traditional American bittering hops" and is described by the brewer as "an American Barleywine." Do I personally think that American hops automatically make a beer "American" in style? No. But my take is irrelevant because I don't like how the category is divided in two anyway. Regardless, there are going to be beers that fall into the "American" style that don't drink like Bigfoot. Heck, I don't think any beer drinks just like Bigfoot.

One beer on BA that always amuses me regarding classification is Anchor Old Foghorn, which is a classic Cascade dry-hopped beer classified here as "English." I suppose the thinking is that it's not as extreme as Bigfoot, but this is the beer that frickin' kicked off the entire craft beer "American" barley wine thing. BA doesn't classify Liberty Ale as an English pale ale even if it doesn't really resemble a modern American IPA. Even the BJCP gets it right by including Foghorn in their American category. Nonetheless, the BA classification means that people leave reviews claiming things along the lines of "nice, but I prefer American barley wines more."

Regarding the barrel treatment question, I'm really on the opposite end of thinking from most people. Brewers in the UK were experimenting with aging beer in spirit barrels for a long time (with even the first Thomas Hardy's Ale aged in sherry barrels... and aging beer in wood is clearly a major part of UK brewing tradition), but the entire "bourbon barrel aged" barley wine phenomenon (and the intention of such aging) really points to a product of American culture... not English. When an American brewer claims that their BBA barley wine is "English style," I don't like it. So what if the hop choice, character or balance is more in line with what style guides consider "English?" Why go out of the way to claim that it is "English style" if the beer resembles popular American practices more than what one considers an "English style" beer? Haven't the scales very clearly tipped in the other direction? Doesn't this barrel aging have a huge impact on the character of the beer... potentially more than where the hops were grown? Such beers have become an American convention. English brewers making BBA barley wines are making beers inspired by American beer. Unfortunately, we don't recognize this because we have a falsely rigid idea of beer styles. The thinking is that American barley wine is defined by hops. The landscape changes though. Is that really the only thing that can define the American barley wine? (The current convention is that this is more or less the case.)

Goose Island claims that their Bourbon County Brand Barleywine is a "traditional English-style barleywine." Is it? One can't honestly answer "yes." If a US brewer aged a pilsner in bourbon barrels with the intention of the beer taking on the flavor of bourbon touched wood, would they claim it was a "traditional Czech-style pilsner?" What if the American pilsner brewer used a pitch lined barrel instead? If there is such a thing as American barley wine, then both Anchor Old Foghorn and Goose Island BCB Barleywine are clearly in that family in my eyes. (I started this post by stating: "The two so-called styles do not work as rigid black and white things even though people talk about them as if they were"... and I am aware that it seems like I haven't taken my own medicine, but I still believe that statement. I think this post proves just how imperfect I am.)
Click to expand...

Is triple IPA (TIPA) a sub set of American Barleywine?

BMBCLT · Jan 6, 2022

Ranbot said: ↑

I prefer English Barleywines fresh, but American Barleywines are one the few styles I really enjoy aging. So I like both for different reasons.

Is triple IPA (TIPA) a sub set of American Barleywine?

Click to expand...

Nah!

Triple IPA is the new Double IPA. Quadruple IPA is the new American Barleywine.

jmdrpi · Jan 6, 2022

chipawayboy said: ↑

Here’s a 2002 vintage I bought at a large Boston chain sometime post pandemic. Looked brand new on the shelf. Tasted fantastic.
Click to expand...

Maybe cellared by the brewery or the importer? I have some similar vintage bottles with that same label design, and the label design has changed a few times since then.

zid · Jan 6, 2022

chipawayboy said: ↑

Here’s a 2002 vintage I bought at a large Boston chain sometime post pandemic. Looked brand new on the shelf. Tasted fantastic.
Click to expand...

jmdrpi said: ↑

Maybe cellared by the brewery or the importer? I have some similar vintage bottles with that same label design, and the label design has changed a few times since then.
Click to expand...

I agree with @jmdrpi 's guess. I would guess that it's an old bottle kept in storage at B United (or possibly at JW Lees and more recently brought to the US by B United), but anything is possible (including a new packaging of an old beer with certain labels for certain vintages... but I wouldn't have even considered that if not for these new cans). That's the oldest vintage B United has in stock. (They also have an English cask of the 2020 vintage in stock BTW.)

chipawayboy · Jan 6, 2022

zid said: ↑

I agree with @jmdrpi 's guess. I would guess that it's an old bottle kept in storage at B United (or possibly at JW Lees and more recently brought to the US by B United), but anything is possible (including a new packaging of an old beer with certain labels for certain vintages... but I wouldn't have even considered that if not for these new cans). That's the oldest vintage B United has in stock. (They also have an English cask of the 2020 vintage in stock BTW.)
Click to expand...

I scored one each of the Sherry and Port cask 2016 vintage in cans last fall -- both had a barrel funk character I can't recall experiencing w/HA. Gave a sweet-tart kinda vibe with was really nice but maybe not intended. I didn't see many others noting this but since I got it in both variants I know I wasn't imagining.

zid · Jan 6, 2022

Ranbot said: ↑

Is triple IPA (TIPA) a sub set of American Barleywine?
Click to expand...

Despite any common differences in the beers, it's more of a rebrand or evolution than subset. Evil Twin has a series of beers with increasing ABV called Molotov Lite, Molotov Cocktail and Molotov Heavy. Jeppe Jarnit-Bjergsø once described the 12-13% ABV Molotov Cocktail as a barley wine that's labeled an IPA because IPAs sell better.

2beerdogs · Jan 6, 2022

I answered with English barleywine. Having said that, I love a well done hoppier American style.

rocdoc1 · Jan 6, 2022

Y'all just reminded me that my nephew gave me 2 bottles of French barleywine for Christmas. I'll definitely have to try them this weekend

QuakeAttack · Jan 6, 2022

jmdrpi said: ↑

And as for the Poll, I selected both.

Need more "Black" Barleywines! Two of my favorite special releases over the years have been Founders Nemesis and Sierra Nevada's 30th Anniversary Jack & Ken's Ale.
Click to expand...

For the Poll, I selected English, but love both styles. Barleywines and Strong Ales are probably my favorites styles.

Similar to your comment above, I like the Barleywines or Strong Ales mixed with Stouts (Fifty Fifty BART is an example). I haven't found many, but everyone that I have tried has been excellent.

deadwolfbones · Jan 6, 2022

Rug said: ↑

I 100% prefer the sweeter flavors of the English version of the style, but I also would never say no to an American one if it caught my eye
Click to expand...

This is basically where I am.

Had a great English-style one from Machine House outta Seattle recently.

Rug · Jan 6, 2022

chipawayboy said: ↑

I scored one each of the Sherry and Port cask 2016 vintage in cans last fall -- both had a barrel funk character I can't recall experiencing w/HA. Gave a sweet-tart kinda vibe with was really nice but maybe not intended. I didn't see many others noting this but since I got it in both variants I know I wasn't imagining.
Click to expand...

Any chance you got these at OEC in Connecticut? I got both of these there a few weeks ago along with a 2002 bottle and 2020 can. Actually a 2015 whiskey cask one as well

Beersnake · Jan 6, 2022

zid said: ↑

Sorry for the long post. This will probably come across as a rant but I promise it isn't meant to read like one.

The two so-called styles do not work as rigid black and white things even though people talk about them as if they were. If one just drinks Bigfoot and Fuller's Vintage Ale (never mind that that beer is classified here as an "old ale" for unknown reasons... but I'm picking an English beer one can actually buy in the US), then that drinker will surely think that the American and English beers are certainly different styles. But Bigfoot and Fuller's Vintage are just two specific beers on various ends of the spectrum and do not represent all of the shades of beers that can be in the barley wine camp. If the classification here insists on dividing between two barley wine styles, then going by something as subjective as reading beer reviews will not be a good way of dividing all of the beers that exist between the two extremes. One should look at what the brewer calls it, the ingredients used, and the country of origin for something more black and white to go along with this black and white method of classification.

Hop choice is the clearest and common distinction used by people to differentiate such beers. Looking at the beers in the above posts - The hops in Black Hog Brewing Bacchanalian Barleywine are Cascade, Bravo, US Goldens, Centennial, Willamette and the beer is (to use the brewer's word's) "an orgy of American and British Malts, Hops, & Yeast." Tree House Tree of Life uses "traditional American bittering hops" and is described by the brewer as "an American Barleywine." Do I personally think that American hops automatically make a beer "American" in style? No. But my take is irrelevant because I don't like how the category is divided in two anyway. Regardless, there are going to be beers that fall into the "American" style that don't drink like Bigfoot. Heck, I don't think any beer drinks just like Bigfoot.

One beer on BA that always amuses me regarding classification is Anchor Old Foghorn, which is a classic Cascade dry-hopped beer classified here as "English." I suppose the thinking is that it's not as extreme as Bigfoot, but this is the beer that frickin' kicked off the entire craft beer "American" barley wine thing. BA doesn't classify Liberty Ale as an English pale ale even if it doesn't really resemble a modern American IPA. Even the BJCP gets it right by including Foghorn in their American category. Nonetheless, the BA classification means that people leave reviews claiming things along the lines of "nice, but I prefer American barley wines more."

Regarding the barrel treatment question, I'm really on the opposite end of thinking from most people. Brewers in the UK were experimenting with aging beer in spirit barrels for a long time (with even the first Thomas Hardy's Ale aged in sherry barrels... and aging beer in wood is clearly a major part of UK brewing tradition), but the entire "bourbon barrel aged" barley wine phenomenon (and the intention of such aging) really points to a product of American culture... not English. When an American brewer claims that their BBA barley wine is "English style," I don't like it. So what if the hop choice, character or balance is more in line with what style guides consider "English?" Why go out of the way to claim that it is "English style" if the beer resembles popular American practices more than what one considers an "English style" beer? Haven't the scales very clearly tipped in the other direction? Doesn't this barrel aging have a huge impact on the character of the beer... potentially more than where the hops were grown? Such beers have become an American convention. English brewers making BBA barley wines are making beers inspired by American beer. Unfortunately, we don't recognize this because we have a falsely rigid idea of beer styles. The thinking is that American barley wine is defined by hops. The landscape changes though. Is that really the only thing that can define the American barley wine? (The current convention is that this is more or less the case.)

Goose Island claims that their Bourbon County Brand Barleywine is a "traditional English-style barleywine." Is it? One can't honestly answer "yes." If a US brewer aged a pilsner in bourbon barrels with the intention of the beer taking on the flavor of bourbon touched wood, would they claim it was a "traditional Czech-style pilsner?" What if the American pilsner brewer used a pitch lined barrel instead? If there is such a thing as American barley wine, then both Anchor Old Foghorn and Goose Island BCB Barleywine are clearly in that family in my eyes. (I started this post by stating: "The two so-called styles do not work as rigid black and white things even though people talk about them as if they were"... and I am aware that it seems like I haven't taken my own medicine, but I still believe that statement. I think this post proves just how imperfect I am.)
Click to expand...

I love the thoughts here! I have had mixed feelings about these beer styles for a while. It's pretty clear that barleywines, Scotch ales/wee heavies, and old ales simply emerged from strong/old ales. I assume that Scotch ales were called that to simply distinguish it from an English barleywine. What are the differences between these styles? Not much. If Scotch ales and barleywines have different names because of different countries, then perhaps a similar style brewed in America should have a totally different name. American Ale? I am not much of a splitter though, and I obviously don't think that's a realistic idea. Because that's not possible, I say let the brewery name their beer whatever they feel is most appropriate.

chipawayboy · Jan 6, 2022

Rug said: ↑

Any chance you got these at OEC in Connecticut? I got both of these there a few weeks ago along with a 2002 bottle and 2020 can. Actually a 2015 whiskey cask one as well
Click to expand...

Got them at Bier Cellar in Portland ME…saw then a few places in greater NE.

SFACRKnight · Jan 6, 2022

WCKDVBZ said: ↑

Nah!

Triple IPA is the new Double IPA. Quadruple IPA is the new American Barleywine.
Click to expand...

I was pretty bummed when Avery stopped calling Hog Heaven a dry hopped barleywine and renamed it an imperial red ipa. Either way what a great beer. I haven't seen it for years though. Probably retired.

crazyspicychef · Jan 6, 2022

rolltide8425 said: ↑

Just remembered I have a bottle of Thomas Hardy’s 50th Anniversary in the cellar. Do I drink it now or let it continue to sit? Don’t think I could go wrong either way.
Click to expand...

I've got a bottle of the Silver anniversary with the same dilemma.

bret27 · Jan 6, 2022

Late to the party but English 1000%.
Unless munichwine

bigdaddypolite · Jan 6, 2022

From the Wayback machine.. Here are the results of a blind BA barleywine tasting we conducted under very strict scientific protocols almost exactly a decade ago (February 2012). @maximum12

-Tasting was completely blind. All 10 beers were poured in advance and numbered, everyone could smell/sip/review in whatever order they wanted, and could revisit/compare favorites all night.
-We all voted for top 3, and points were as follows First - 5 points, Second - 3 points, Third - 1 point.
-I was concerned beforehand that everything would start to taste the same, but that was not an issue. The best emerged and the laggards lagged throughout the night.
-This was very fun, and I strongly suggest others put together blind tastings and post the results for science!

RESULTS/SCORES
#1: GI King Henry - 29 Points
#2: Dry Dock Bligh's Barleywine -17 Points
#3: Alpine Great 2009 - 12 Points
#4: Hoppin' Frog BA Naked Evil - 7 Points

These received some votes:
Schlafly's Reserve BW
Sebago Single Batch Barleywine
Town Hall Brewery Twisted Jim 2009 Growler

These scored 0 points:
Mother of All Storms 2011
FW Abacus
Khunhenn BBBW 2010

Treyliff · Jan 6, 2022

English Barleywines are one of my favorite styles. I love the caramel, tobacco, toffee and brown sugar goodness. American IPA's taste very boozy and the hops typically come across as stale. American barleywines are one of the only styles that I prefer aged over fresh.

Barleywine Appreciation Thread (2022)

Which type of Barleywine do you prefer?

American

English

That's like asking me to choose my favorite child, I love them all!

Neither, if Barleywine is life then life has no meaning.

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chipawayboy Pooh-Bah (2,181) Oct 26, 2007 Massachusetts
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zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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Barleywine Appreciation Thread (2022)

Which type of Barleywine do you prefer?

American

English

That's like asking me to choose my favorite child, I love them all!

Neither, if Barleywine is life then life has no meaning.

zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

chipawayboy Pooh-Bah (2,181) Oct 26, 2007 Massachusetts Pooh-Bah Trader

Ranbot Pooh-Bah (2,463) Nov 27, 2006 Pennsylvania Pooh-Bah

BMBCLT Grand Pooh-Bah (3,427) May 9, 2014 South Carolina Pooh-Bah

jmdrpi Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,989) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

chipawayboy Pooh-Bah (2,181) Oct 26, 2007 Massachusetts Pooh-Bah Trader

zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,132) Feb 15, 2010 New York BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

2beerdogs Grand Pooh-Bah (5,682) Jan 31, 2005 California BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

rocdoc1 Savant (1,215) Jan 13, 2006 New Mexico

QuakeAttack Pooh-Bah (2,353) Mar 19, 2012 California BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

deadwolfbones Pundit (795) Jun 21, 2014 Oregon

Rug Grand Pooh-Bah (3,454) Aug 20, 2018 Massachusetts Pooh-Bah Trader

Beersnake Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,884) Aug 17, 2013 California Mod Team Society Pooh-Bah Trader

chipawayboy Pooh-Bah (2,181) Oct 26, 2007 Massachusetts Pooh-Bah Trader

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