Do you check for freshness?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by chuckstout, Feb 2, 2022.

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  1. John_M

    John_M Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,849) Oct 25, 2003 Washington
    Mod Team Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    I've been in your situation as well, and I know what you mean. It's tough to know how to handle a situation such as the one you describe. If it's a restaurant I tend to frequent, then I'll generally take the time to talk to the waiter/waitress of manager, explaining to them that 6 or 7 months is really too old for an IPA and that they really need to be more careful about rotating stock. I'd make it clear that I'm not trying to get out of paying for the beer; that I really like the restaurant and plan to keep on coming back; and that consequently I feel as if I have a vested interest in making sure they only sell beer that isn't too old to enjoy.

    If it's a restaurant that I likely won't be visiting again (or at least not very often), then I might point out the problem just in passing at the end of the meal. I would tell them everything you mentioned in your post... that you drink a lot of SOS, that the beer you had was still enjoyable, but that there had clearly been a bit of a drop off in the quality due to how old it is. I might even point out that this is the reason the brewer had even printed on the can that the beer needs to be drunk fresh. Of course even then, probably 90% of the time your comment will likely fall on deaf ears and they'll still think you're a snob/dick. Oh well...

    Just a final observation/comment... while I'm a big fan of craft beer and IPA's in particular, I typically won't ever order a can or bottle at a fine restaurant. While I think the landscape is slowly changing, even today many customers simply don't associate drinking a beer with fine dining. If a restaurant buys a case of an IPA, it can often takes months (sometimes even years) to sell it all in the restaurant. Here in PDX for example, there was/is a fine dining restaurant in town that had bottles of PtE that were nearly 2 years old. The place even has a beer sommelier for Chrissakes, so they clearly were taking beer pretty seriously. Didn't matter. Most consumers ordered either wine or cocktails with their meal. If someone wanted to have a beer with their meal (the restaurant had a bistro dining area attached that was a bit more informal), they would order something from the taplist (they usually have a good one).

    One last comment/suggestion. If you do decide you want to have an IPA with your meal at a nice restaurant, maybe ask the waiter/waitress before hand if she knows how recently they got the beer in, or if you can take a look at the canning/bottling date before ordering. I've done this several times in the past, and the staff didn't seem to have a problem with my request (I tried to be as polite as possible). However, I haven't done this in some time for reasons you can probably guess... every time I did this the beer was so old it would have been completely undrinkable (well, at least I thought it was).
     
    #161 John_M, Feb 6, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2022
  2. eppCOS

    eppCOS Grand Pooh-Bah (4,570) Jun 27, 2015 Colorado
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Alright, I wish I could say "always," but that's not true. Occasionally, that impulsive vein in me will kick up and I'll grab a various random 4 or 6 pack, and only realize "Doh!" when I get home.
    Doesn't happen often, but still happens. Or in some cases more frustratingly, I can't . read. the . date. on the . can. because it's smeared, sideways, or way to fine/oblong - and then decipher later that it's a few months old.
    Not a big deal, until it is.
    :wink:
     
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  3. SLeffler27

    SLeffler27 Grand Pooh-Bah (4,906) Feb 24, 2008 New York
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Four or five breweries, that I have noticed. All in the past three years. Two in NY (including an IPA), one in Asheville, NC (of all the places!) one just recently outside Raleigh, NC. These may have been anomalies, with one NY exception where it was multiple four-pack styles.

    The Raleigh one shocked me, because it was a four pack, and one of the four cans was from September. It was the last can so I couldn’t cross check the others. Not too old, however: The difference, from this can vs. the others, was spectacular. I couldn’t take more than two sips, while the others were very good, and I reviewed it 4.5 - 4.25 - 4.25 - 4.5 - 4.5. on 10.Jan. The last can I drank was a week later. It is unlikely the one can turned so much so fast. I have ideas of how this may have occurred, and all absolve the brewer, so I won’t mention their name.

    Of these, the recent one was the only “bad” beer. The others certainly weren’t fresh or worthy of buying again. But who knows, maybe they were great when fresh.
     
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  4. RyanK252

    RyanK252 Grand Pooh-Bah (4,654) May 18, 2014 California
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I look like a mad Egyptologist to everyone else in the store, but it's saved me countless times. If it doesn't have a date code and I don't know for sure when it was released I don't buy it. I'm still amazed that legible date stamping isn't an industry standard.
     
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  5. defunksta

    defunksta Grand Pooh-Bah (4,164) Jan 18, 2019 Wisconsin
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    I agree, this is an absolute must for IPAs. For lagers, I still usually check.
    You also have to feel the season. For example, if you see Bells Oberon on the shelf in January or an Oktoberfest in June you have to ask the question and check the label. I think COVID supply chain issues made this even more crucial.
     
  6. WoogityBoogity

    WoogityBoogity Crusader (419) Nov 20, 2008 Florida

    For certain styles/beers, I have actually done the opposite several times, and looked for the oldest bottles hiding in the back of the shelf (provided they are well out of any sunlight/UV exposure).

    Anyone else, or just me?
     
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  7. chuckstout

    chuckstout Crusader (419) May 22, 2006 Ohio

    Agree. I usually have to look hard to find the date and being near sided makes things worse!
     
  8. Rug

    Rug Grand Pooh-Bah (3,454) Aug 20, 2018 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Yup! Always fun to find old beers (of appropriate style) that have already been cellared for me
     
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  9. officerbill

    officerbill Pooh-Bah (2,228) Feb 9, 2019 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Thanks. The distributor delivering old beer happens, but isn't common.

    Around here the biggest cause of out of date beer seems to be the retailer only selling one or two packs out of a case and the remainder growing old sitting on the shelf with the distributor being under no obligation to take it back.

    How is this scenario handled in your market?

    You order a case of a new IPA release, but it turns out your customers just don't want it and 9 months later you've only sold two 4 packs.
    Is the distributor likely to swap it with fresh stock of a beer you can't sell, swap it it for different beer from the same brewery, or give you some sort of credit?
     
  10. Fadefury

    Fadefury Initiate (0) Sep 29, 2011 Delaware

    As someone who works for a distributor, often times distributors do have the option within their computer software to punch in "miscellaneous" cases, but it comes at a cost for the retailer because it's a flat rate refund no matter what's in the case. The other option is for the salesmen to do a personal swap of equivalent value with something from the warehouse. I personally do this as much as possible, but it's never going to be a perfect situation. There's just simply too much beer going to market distribution now and not enough buyers/consumers. As I said previously in this trend, the market is a minefield these days of out-of-code products. That spans beyond just craft beer too.
     
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    So, does the Wholesale Distributor you work for order less beer?

    Are they buying less beer overall? Are they placing more frequent but lesser amount orders with the breweries to better match consumer demand?

    Cheers!
     
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  12. Fadefury

    Fadefury Initiate (0) Sep 29, 2011 Delaware

    Typically what's demanded is a combination of forecasting for the year down to individual quarters. Of course adjustments are made throughout that time frame, but it's become more of a frequent ask from craft brewers of regional size and smaller. Overall, our house numbers are up, though other neighboring houses throughout the state are down. Certain suppliers have pallet minimums that have to be met, as well as minimum quantities per SKU; half pallets of 50 cases for example is the minimum for some suppliers. It has become easier to hit pallet mins given the ever expanding portfolios, but you also have to balance the reality of shelf space.

    There's a lot of guessing and predicting the unknown that goes into the process as I'm sure you can guess. Some of the smaller distributors that deal in "boutique" suppliers don't have this issue. When your model is built around continually pumping out 5 new SKU's each week and not building a core, you've simplified the matter, but also creating the saturation that's being seen. Whether it's the beer going into distribution without dates (this is completely obnoxious and shouldn't be a thing), or suppliers conflating that because it's been "bought" from their warehouse/brewery that it's also been consumed, there's numerous variables causing problems.

    Also I should note how difficult forecasting is when it comes to the "tickers". Those who are not repeat SKU buyers, have no brand loyalty, and continually hop (no pun intended) around. The pandemic has drastically changed so much about the distribution landscape and I don't see it ever going back to the way it was before.
     
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  13. LagerHunter

    LagerHunter Initiate (110) Oct 19, 2020 California
    Trader

    The more we demand freshness, the more breweries will have to keep things fresh. Simple as that.
     
  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I recognize that forecasting is not easy.
    And that is part of the issue. If you have to order from a brewery a minimum buy which exceeds local consumer demand then the net result is old/aging beer; but you already know this.

    There is no doubt that in the beer industry there is a systemic problem; as you stated: "More beer is being produced than is being consumed."

    If the breweries continue to produce too much beer and also demand that Wholesale Distributors place minimum orders which represent greater amounts than customer demand the issue of aging/old beer will continue in perpetuity.

    One (or more?) entities of the beer industry supply chain (Breweries -> Wholesale Distributor -> Retailer) will have to 'step up to the plate' and proactively address/fix this problem. Or I suppose we can just have the perpetual issue of old beer at retailers.

    I can relate that as a consumer my 'fix' here is to buy more and more beer directly from small, local breweries.

    What I am about to state is not specifically directed at you but: if the distributing beer industry does not act responsibly and fix this known problem they risk losing increasing business to the non-distributing breweries.

    Cheers!
     
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  15. fuzzbalz

    fuzzbalz Pundit (953) Apr 13, 2002 Georgia

    Yes, always check. Also, don't expect that it's "local" so it should be ok. I just got burned by a six'er of Space Lettuce from Monday night brewing. Couldn't find a date anywhere on the box, and I really like the beer, so I said what the hell. Got it home and on the bottom of the can was a best by date of 11/13/21......it was a sweet mess of a beer, lesson learned.
     
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  16. Fadefury

    Fadefury Initiate (0) Sep 29, 2011 Delaware

    Well what's happening is that SKU's that are not hitting a certain level of volume are being cut out. A line is being drawn in the sand by distributors. So yes, what you are seeking is certainly happening, but the pandemic absolutely sped up the process. Non-distributing breweries have sporadic luck. Too many accounts look to minimize the number of "distributors" they are dealing with and this will include breweries that are distributing on their own.

    Your fix is of course one option, but as I think has become more than obvious is that these small, local breweries can no longer sell strictly from their taprooms. They seek larger venues and go into distribution. I think that no matter how you cut the conversation, the fact of the matter is that more beer is being produced than consumed. Distributors will fix it on their end by adjusting orders, but overall, breweries will have to fix it on their end and address the start of the issue. Hell, the issue has even more tiers than just those two. Retailers need to stop buying products without dates. I'm sorry if this sounds rude to some, but it's a perishable product. There's nothing more obnoxious than a 19.99 four pack of whatever that has no born on date or expiration date. Retailers also need to focus more on SKU's that have consistent volume and velocity; i.e. "keeps the lights on". Reduce the amount of attention to the market "noise"; i.e. in and out SKU's. Both of which will help the market in regards to freshness, but also helps to keep consistency for those needing to forecast volume.

    I will note that I don't speak from someone within a "chain state". Chain states are an entirely different beast. A good bit of what I've mentioned would still apply to them.
     
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  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Yes, some (but not most) of the small, local breweries near me will sell their beers via beer retailers. One example I can provide here is Workhorse Brewing and they self-distribute their products to their partner retailers. When I purchase cans of Workhorse Brewing beers it is predominantly seasonal/rotating beers and I buy them directly from the brewery/taproom.
    And for emphasis I 100% agree with you here; it is a systemic issue.
    Ideally the fix would occur on both ends here: less beer being produced by the breweries along with less restrictive minimum orders. And the distributors making small orders on a more frequent basis to better manage product freshness.
    I am less optimistic here. Customers will demand beers from 'hot' breweries and I can't see a retailer telling them they refuse to buy these beers from the distributors due to lack of can dating. And while we are discussing this topic a real problem is the fourth entity of the supply chain - the consumer. There are just too many consumers who are ignorant about the importance of product dating/freshness. The beer industry (e.g., breweries) could play a more proactive role here in educating consumers but frankly I do not presently see this; I am guessing that even breweries on provide packaged on dates prefer to not be extremely vocal here since they do not want too many consumers (like me) refusing to purchase beers because they are 3/4 months old.
    Over the past few years this is a thought that I have sorta come around to: retailers should have a smaller but well curated line of products to aid in providing fresh product to their customers. I can report that I have not witnessed this specific strategy at my local beer retailers but I suppose they might 'take credit' here if they claimed that by carrying more non-beer products (e.g., hard seltzers) and displacing beer products they are being 'good' retailers here. I really think they are just deciding to provide the high growth hard seltzers more shelf space with little thought about freshness when it comes to nixing beers.

    Cheers!
     
  18. thebeeremptor

    thebeeremptor Pundit (764) Aug 12, 2018 California
    BA4LYFE Society Trader

    I'll get into a little more of the frustration and complexity in the next bit but 99% of the time, beer is swapped. If I have a full case, it's swapped for a full case. If I have only half a case, I'm given a full case as a swap and charged the remaining half. Getting credit is rare and it's usually reserved for something that no longer exists or has no good equivalent in case price to swap. Even rarer still, some of my self-distributed guys will straight up buy the expired beer from the store and only when it's like one or two packs. Then there are times that I don't deal with the hassle of getting a small quantity swapped, either because the distributor is a pain in the ass to work with or I know it probably will never get taken care of, so I just dump it and eat the cost.

    I understand why swaps are the preferred way of doing things but it's also incredibly inconvenient when I get swaps for a large quantity (multiple cases) of expired beer knowing it's going to continue to not sell and I will have to get it swapped again in 6 - 8 months. I don't like dealing with it and I'm sure my distro doesn't like dealing with it either.

    The frustrating/complex part depends entirely on the distributor and whether or not I have a decent point of contact (representative) there. So good example is right now I seemingly have no rep for one of my mid-sized distributors and if I do, I have never met them; I have a merch who shows up every week and even he doesn't know last time I talked to him. I've had some very attentive and great reps and I've had some awful ones and I've even had some I've never met.

    @Fadefury I appreciate your input in this thread. I only know from my side what's going on in-depth so getting it from your point of view is enlightening. I always try to keep that in mind when I'm dealing with my distros because they have plenty of other issues, responsibilities and frustrations to take care of; I hope you and the rest of the people who read my posts didn't take my comments to mean I was slamming distributors. This is simply a reality we all have to be responsible for and work together to improve at each level.
     
  19. thebeeremptor

    thebeeremptor Pundit (764) Aug 12, 2018 California
    BA4LYFE Society Trader

    This is actually how a beer department is supposed to be run and this was actually my main initiative when I started at the store I work for. I significantly leaned out my department and increased turnover dramatically. There was a bit of a hit to sales in the first year to year and a half but after that, experimentation and curation seems to have worked out. And just as I thought the company might see the light, they EXPANDED my department. I've had to rely on the curation aspect more after that expansion, even then I still deal with OOCs. It's just inevitable.

    I'm now being requested to completely gut and redo beer departments at other stores now because some of them are so poorly run, with expired beer that's not being taken care of out of laziness or ignorance, withering away on the shelf.
     
  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Thank you for your efforts here!

    Cheers!
     
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