Differences between Lambics, Wilds and Sours?

A traditional Lambic wort is made by a complicated, time consuming, unique "turbid" mash schedule that leaves starch and dextrins not fermentable by common ale yeast. This provides the food for the wild yeast and bacteria that would otherwise not be able to compete with the common brewing yeast. Here's one description.

Cheers!

 

Well, technically, in the original Flemish....aw screw it, you got me.

 

No, they shouldn't. There are several different styles of beer that have a sour taste, but are otherwise quite different, such as Lambics and Flemish Red Ales. Capitalizing sour ales indicates to others the person thinks it's a real beer style and lacks knowledge in that area. Also, I'm a newly retired teacher and haven't given up my red pen yet.

 

True, but not when your referring to his comment. A sour beer to a Brett beer is way different if not containing lacto/pedio mix. Also, maybe he commented from a phone which autocorrects like mine in which capitalizes words such as Brett in my response. Though I don't totally agree with his response ( mostly the second half), he makes some valid point in which anyone who has enjoyed a soured beer to a Brett beer understands.
I'm not retired nor a teacher but I know a soured beer from a bretted beer.

 

So should sweet beers, bitter beers, salty beers, and umami beers also be styles?

 

As in sweet stouts, ipas, and gose? They have categories...?

 

(the umami beer is sam adams triple bock, btw )

 

They don't. Much like sour, they're flavors, where a range of completely different beers all fall under. "Sour Beer" doesn't work as a style, because its only a flavor. An Oud Bruin and a Gueuze both are sour, but taste next to nothing alike.

 

Gose?? That's a new one. What's it like? - oh, wait a minute, you mean Gueuze, don't you?

 

wait, is this sarcasm in response to perceived sarcasm? or sarcasm in response to perceived sincerity...?

 

They are made using an open vat so the beer is exposed to all the yeast in the air. There actually is a great article that was in the New York Times about Crooked Stave and their use of brett...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/02/d...-funky-yeast-makes-flavorful-beers.html?_r=2&

Cliff notes from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambic
There are tons of different yeast strains. They typically produce funky, barnyard flavors. Something most winemakers typically try to avoid...however it is becoming more and more popular with beer. In Belgium, they have been using open-vat fermentation for hundreds of years. While the wort is cooling it is exposed. A typical lambic takes about 3 years to make depending on how long they decide to age in casks. They are made in and around Brussels and are unblended. There are also Gueuzes that are a blend of 1, 2 and 3 year lambics.

Back to your original question though...the difference between lambic, sour and American wild...Well not all American wild's are sour. An American wild would quite simply be described as a beer that actively implements wild yeast in the brew making process. The brewer wants the yeast strains to influence the flavor of the beer. With lambics that have fruit, a secondary fermentation occurs in the bottle. This is from the yeast that is on the skin of the fruit. Remember, yeast eats sugar and the by-product is CO2.

I think if you are trying to be able to distinguish the differences of style you should start with Flanders vs. Lambic. Rodenbach opened in 1836. These breweries have been making a specific style for a very long time and even though your end result is extremely wide...they know how to produce the beer they want. A great brewer knows how to tame the yeast so to speak...or let it run a little wild.

 

All this talk is making me want a sour ale... Something from Jolly Pumpkin sounds pretty damn good.

 

Sarcasm is constantly used by many on this site, no reason to make a big deal of it - or were you just being sarcastic?

 

There actually is a Gose style you know.

 

It needs a few words of history to understand Lambic and Gueuze (Lambiek, Geuze in Dutch).
Until the 14th century no beer was able to be kept longer than 8 days, as it went sour. All beers head to be consumed in the few days after the main fermentation. After 10 or more days, the sometimes extremely sour beers were prohibited an had to be destroyed or they were sold for further acidification to vinegar. To avoid sourness, brewers started to brew in the cold months (from October until April), they performed the brewing system and developped the "turbid mash" system and they started to use aged hops and to boil the beer for a long time. This resulted in a beer with a winy taste (like chardonnay with some odd bitterness) that keeps for up to 3, even 4 years.
Lembeek was a "free town", it was independent and tax-free until 1794, so the beer had to keep well to trade it.

So, if you compare "sour beer" to Lambic, the difference is that a brewer of sour beer is looking for a lot of sourness in his beer and that the traditional Lambic brewer is trying to limit the sourness to obtain a beer with a winy taste.

Wild yeasts, like Brett. count for extraordinary flavors, but also some off-flavors (the so-called barnyard...). It is the art to enhance the Brett. character and to avoid and mask the off-flavors. That's how a fine refermented Lambic (called Gueuze) is made. It takes average 18 months in the casks and 2 years in the bottle to get top quality.
There are 3 category's of Gueuze:
1) "Malse" Gueuze (Dutch for "mellow", "moelleux" in French), delicate with a discreet winy sourness, this is the top
2) Lactic Gueuze, where lactic acid has not enough been transformed to esters, nice in hot summers
3) Acetic Gueuze, where acetic acid (vinegar) is dominating. This beer is not fit for consumption, it is sold as 'Gueuze cuisine', perfect for a marinade of "carbonade flamande" or german "sourbraten".

Sometimes these 3th quality extremely sour beers are branded as "extremely complex" and to have a "strong taste", but if a fine Californian red wine acquires this taste, it will be sold as wine vinegar.

I hope you understand my 'english'... Kind regards, Frank Boon

 

The fruits go in the barrel, and a fermentation takes place there. At least that is what I have seen in Belgium.

For anyone who is interested in these beers, they should read Wild Brews by Sparrow.

Edit - I see that is what the Wiki says. If that is the case, where is the fruit residue in the bottle? There would be a lot.

 

No, I really meant gose.
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/style/16

 

There are two fermentation processes. The second one occurs in the bottle when the yeast from the skin of the fruit is in the bottle. The actual skin is not in the bottle. In wine its called ageing on its lees. So it stays in the barrel with the skins and is "strained" before going in the bottle. The skin contact though provided the necessary yeast for the secondary fermentation along with sugar.

 

Mr. Boon, what do you think of American brewers making lambic style beer and calling it Lambic? Thanks for that great post.

 

A couple edits here, but Lambic does not require standard brewing, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. There is about 30 to 40% unmalted wheat that goes into the grain bill, and the use of low AA hops from Poperinge that have been aged for at least three years. The brewing process uses a decoction method and/or a stepped infusion method, and the boil may last for up to as long as six hours, which aids in removing the "cheesy" notes from the stale hops.

Also it would be more appropriate to use microflora instead of flora and fauna.