When Will Italian Pilsners Be A Category?

What differentiates them from German pilsners?

 

Italian Pilsners tend to be more pretentious.

 

My thread re American Pilsners went nowhere. Interesting.

 

Lol…best post of the week!

 

Italian style for the Italian pilsners!

What ever happened to the style council, anyways? Not that I think we ever reached any consensus, but I always enjoyed the conversations.

 

It’s a Pilsner that talks with its hands!?!

There is a ‘belief’ that a Pilsner that incorporates dry hopping yields an Italian Pilsner since the Agostino Arioli ‘discovered’ dry hopping for his Pilsner Tipo Pils back in 1996. I posted the below in a past thread and you will read that some German breweries have been dry hopping their lagers for generations.

“According to Arioli, the Italian style is defined by simple metrics: It must be light in color, between 4 and 5.4 percent alcohol by volume, and, most critically, should be dry-hopped using only traditional German or Czech hops, also known as noble hops, “or new varieties that resemble the traditional ones,” he says.”

There may be some exceptions but the criteria of “must be light in color” and “between 4 and 5.4 percent alcohol by volume” is consistent for many (most) Pilsners.

So, let’s further discuss the third criterion of “should be dry-hopped using only traditional German or Czech hops, also known as noble hops…”.Well, this is not unique either since German brewer have been doing this as well for generations. This was discussed by me in a past thread:

“And German breweries have been dry hopping their beers (including Pilsners) for generations:

“German breweries that dry hops their Pilsners/Lagers

“Kopp wrote via email that members of traditional family breweries acknowledge their ancestors were familiar with the technique. In some cases, those breweries are making dry-hopped lagers today. Ruperti Pils from Brauerei Wieninger in upper Bavaria is an example of one.”

https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/brewers-perspective-the-origins-and-elements-of-tipopils.645790/page-2#post-70575

It would appear that Arioli thinks he is doing something novel via dry hopping his Pilsner but German brewers have been doing (and still are doing) this before he was born.

The so called “Italian Pilsner” is simply a German Pilsner which includes the aspect of dry hopping with European hops. Nothing really new to see here.

Cheers!

Edit: Also: https://tinyletter.com/fortheloveof...ping-goes-back-more-than-a-century-in-germany

Where it states:

"In 2012, the German Brauerbund, the caretaker of the Reiheitsgebot, declared dry hopping did not violate that beer purity law. The implication was that Germans did not previously dry hop beer. That is wrong."

P.S. It would appear that the tinyletter.com link above is now 'broken'.

 

@JackHorzempa

So maybe the quick fix is to call it a "Traditional Dry-Hop (Italian) Pilsner" or something along those lines? That way we root that this is not necessarily something uniquely italian but also root that it has to be done using the traditional hops but that the innovation is the dry-hopping stage?

I know its a lot of words but it also guards against a lot of other latter day American silliness where Americans may sub in all kinds of other hops at any and all stages.

 

The ‘issue’ in the terminology of “traditional” is that it has such varied meaning to folks.

Some people will view “traditional” as meaning something they personally experienced in (insert country/region name here) during their visit in the past (insert year here). Some other people have a broader landscape where they view “traditional” as being how a beer was brewed (insert country/region name here) century(s) ago.

I am personally not willing to concede that in 1996 Agostino Arioli ‘invented’ a new beer style simply because he decided to dry hop a German style Pilsner and allegedly he had no knowledge that German brewers would utilize dry hopping for their Pilsners then (and generations earlier).

If I have a vote here, I would simply place beers that folks are nowadays branding as Italian Pilsner in the German Pilsner category and those beers could include the words “dry hopped” in the given brands beer description.

That topic was addressed in the thread started by @LesDewitt4beer (which got nowhere ) and in that thread I posted:

“There seems to be a 'movement' for some breweries to produce Pilsners using modern day aroma hops (e.g., Mosaic, Citra, etc.) and I have read where some folks label these beers as being West Coast Pilsners.”

I am personally not a fan of calling these beers as “West Coast” Pilsners but…

Cheers!

 

I think that fad has passed. Don't see hardly any around here anymore, whereas 2-4 years ago they were like ticks on a coonhound.

 

@JackHorzempa I guess I wanted to relate your comment that if the germans have been doing it then its a misnomer to call it italian but it is a misnomer one is stuck with.

 

I can see both sides here because I agree with @JackHorzempa that the Italian Pilsner doesn't have a uniquely new defintion other than dry-hopping. But I also see the confusion as categorizing all of these as simply German Pilsners doesn't seem appropriate.
Yes, maybe there is a broad category something along the lines of "hoppy pilsner" that could encompass Italian Pils, west-coast pils, and all of the other experimentation with hoppy pilsners. German brewers could decide whether to call it a traditional German Pils or a Hoppy Pils. But like @JackHorzempa said this would provide confusion for the beers from German Brewries that use dry-hopping. I don't know there is a perfect answer here.

 

With emphasis in bold by me:

“Misnomer means “an incorrect name or designation.”

https://www.merriam-webster.com/word-of-the-day/misnomer-2022-09-23

I suppose it is up to each of us to decide whether we want to promulgate something that is “incorrect”?

Cheers!

P.S. As I already stated I ‘vote’ no to promulgating something that is “incorrect”. Others can choose differently.

 

The other evening I enjoyed a delightful Franconian Style Leichtbier. Fuck a Light Lager or a European Pale Lager or even a German Liechtbier. I want my Liechtbier to be modeled after those from the Franconia region specifically.

 

If the only distinction is that its announcing that it is dry hopped. Just call it a dry hopped pilsner and call it a day.

 

Just yesterday I finished reading the book Modern Lager Beer, which I highly recommend, and on page 227:

"As of 2022, the Great American Beer Festival now boasts two new hoppy lager categories, The India Pale Lager or Cold IPA category and the Other Hoppy Lager category."

As I understand it the GABF uses the Brewers Association beer style guidelines and in reviewing those guidelines I was not able to find "Other Hoppy Lager" listed. Maybe this is something they are considering for a future update?

I suspect it would be quite confusing to consolidate substyles like you listed since those varying beers would taste quite different. A Pilsner brewed using Mosaic and/or Citra for dry hopping will taste very different from a Pilsner that was dry hopped with noble (or noble-like) hops.

I am not sure that a consolidated category makes sense here.

If we confine the discussion to the German Pilsner beer style, a German style Pilsner that is dry hopped with noble hops certainly tastes like a German Pilsner to me. In a past NBS thread I discussed TipoPils and that beer tasted like a German Pilsner to me.

Cheers!



Edit: I just looked to see what category TipoPils is in and it is Euro Pale Lager. I am not sure what to say here.

 

We don’t have separate style categories for Northern and Southern German Pils, which I find have distinct flavor profiles. I feel an Italian Pils is less distinct, so no need to create a separate category.

Furthermore, when we say something is “from” a region, typically there’s some ingredient that is inherent to that region used in brewing it. That’s not the case here.

 

I did take note you used the qualifier of "typically" here and it is indeed the case that for the so called "Italian Pilsner" there is not specific Italian ingredient but as you are aware for the so called New England IPA substyle there is no specific New England ingredient. FWIW I prefer to refer to these beers as Juicy/Hazy IPA.

Cheers!

 

I think process would be sufficient however it would have to adequately describe a common practice in that region. Its the distinctiveness that makes a difference.