Lager Yeast in IPAs

Not sure what the individual brewers' motivations are, but there never has been a strict dividing line. I could imagine a WC IPA or similar style tasting cleaner (better?) with lager yeast. Yuengling's Lord Chesterfield has used lager yeast for about 50 years, as have many other US ales from the legacy brewers. In Britain, (from Pattinson) it was common for brewers to market "lagers" fermented with ale yeast. When I was drinking beer 50 years ago, specific info was scarce, and I'd just go by my taste buds, not worrying too much about the brewing process (which was usually unknowable anyway).

 

It's long been said by many here that the name IPA itself is a marketing tool, and I guess that is at least partly true. Is it possible that calling a beer an IPA and putting in the nottes it is brewed with lager yeast might be a way to avoid calling the beer an India Pale Lager/IPL?

 

Within the industry, ales brewed with lager yeast but fermented warm are called Bastard Ales (not to be confused with a Stone Brewing Co. product ):

As @moodenba noted, many US pre-craft era ales were bastard ales, including (besides Yuengling's Chesterfield Ale) well-known beers like Rainier Ale, Shoenling's Little Kings Ale, McSorley's Ale (under Rheingold) (Koch's) Black Horse Ale, even the craft-era Pete's Wicked Ale. US brewers at the time did not like to use more than one yeast for fear of infecting or mutating their primary house yeast.

The TTB's legal definition of "Ale" does not mandate the use of top-fermenting yeast (US brewers objected to that back in the 1930s, when the US regulations were being written post-Repeal), only "comparatively high temperature" fermentation:

 

I think such practices (and similar) are likely much more common than people think. I’ve heard brewers say they use “lager” yeast for every IPA they make.

 

I guess I don’t know enough about the brewing process—I thought that if you used lager yeast then it was by definition bottom-fermenting and thus technically a lager, and conversely if you use ale yeast then it is top-fermenting and is an ale. Are we saying that you can use lager yeast but it will somehow still be top-fermenting? If so is that just a function of the temperature at which you are fermenting? And if that’s the case, then can one also ferment beer (wort) at cold temperatures using ale yeast and it’s bottom-fermenting? I guess I was under the impression that some of these things were more black-and-white than what people seem to be saying here.

 

All rules are meant to be broken, (except those imposed by the regulators).

 

Whose definition?

Not much is truly simply "black-and-white" in this world, brewing included.

 

Nature/biology/how various yeast strains work

 

Nature does what it wants - it takes humans to come along and (try) to categorize it by simplifying things while ignoring the exceptions and outliers.

 

You're talking about the scientific rules, this thread is about the marketing, where science doesn't matter.

 

I understand that. But one of the first, most fundamental facts we all learn about beer is that it comprises ales and lagers—and that the terms relate to the type of yeast used to make them and whether they are top-or bottom-fermenting. Above you reference “bastard ales,” “ales brewed with lager yeast but fermented warm”—and I was under the impression that lager yeast was used to ferment beer at colder temperatures, either out of necessity (the yeast can’t survive warmer temperatures) or preference (the yeast is more effective at colder temperatures) or some other reason. Now it seems we are saying there is no meaningful difference between ale and lager yeast, which is sort of like saying mammals can now be cold-blooded and lay eggs and reptiles can be warm-blooded and nurse their young. So yes, definitions and classifications change as we learn more but this is pretty basic, fundamental stuff. And yes I get that a brewer might market an IPL as an IPA because they think it will sell better, but I’m talking about the practical use of these different types of yeasts—and I thought there was still a more rigid distinction between them than is apparently the case. That’s what I’m getting at. And if there is no longer such a distinction, then why do we even have and use these different words to classify the two main types of beer?

See above. Breweries can market their beers however they want, although I think a beer fermented with lager yeast should be referred to as a lager and a beer fermented with ale yeast should be referred to as an ale—unless I’m still misunderstanding something about whether lager yeasts can be top-fermenting and/or ale yeasts can be bottom-fermenting (I was still under the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that this was kind of a key dividing line between the two types of beer). Maybe I just never got the memo that you can have top-fermenting lagers and/or bottom-fermenting ales, but that’s a pretty major change in our understanding of beer. Or mine, anyway.

 

Well, not really "now " - it has been a (admittedly somewhat debated) topic in the US brewing industry for over a century.

 

White Labs’ California V Ale Yeast (WLP051) was long thought to be an offshoot of the Anchor Liberty strain or possibly New Albion, but has been more recently sequenced and found to be a lager yeast. The lines are pretty blurry between what constitutes ale vs. lager yeast. I know a small brewery that uses W-34/70 for all their beers including hazy IPAs.

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-single?id=129&type=YEAST

 

The Wahl article says “The question of whether ale must be made by top fermentation already has been discussed under the definition for beer.” So it seems that at one point the word “beer” was used to mean “lager” as opposed to how we currently understand the term, as an umbrella for both lager and ale. And I’m aware that language and meanings change over time—I guess what I’m now learning, or perhaps rediscovering, is that the line between top-fermenting ale yeast and bottom-fermenting lager yeast is not as distinct as I had thought.

Edit: For purposes of this discussion it’s worth considering these definitions found on this website:

What’s an Ale?
This category of beer uses yeast that ferments at the "top" of the fermentation vessel, and typically at higher temperatures than lager yeast (60°-75°F), which, as a result, makes for a quicker fermentation period (7-8 days, or even less). Ale yeast are known to produce by-products called esters, which are "flowery" and "fruity" aromas ranging, but not limited to apple, pear, pineapple, grass, hay, plum, and prune.

What’s a Lager?
The word lager comes from the German word lagern which means, "to store". A perfect description as lagers are brewed with bottom fermenting yeast that work slowly at around 34 degrees F, and are often further stored at cool temperature to mature. Lager yeast produce fewer by-product characters than ale yeast which allows for other flavors to pull through, such as hops.

 

I'm pretty sure that I remember reading that the Chico ale yeast was originally the yeast Ballantine's used for their lager.

 

“Whose definition?”

Yup, I suppose each individual or bureaucracy gets to have their own definition?

I just finished reading the recently published book Modern Lager Beer by Jack Hendler & Joe Connolly. Both of these gentlemen are Jack’s Abby folks. This book was a great read and I recommend it to people who want to learn more on the topic of lagers.

Chapter 1: What exactly is a Lager?

Subtitle of the Chapter: Defining Lager Beer

A couple of snippets from this chapter:

“Myths, misunderstandings, and mass-marketing have all combined to cloud the reality of lager, even among professionals.”

And:

To professionals and enthusiasts alike, lager is understood as beer that is cold fermented with a lager yeast strain and matured for a relatively lengthy period.”

It could be argued, and likely will be argued, that this is just two people’s ‘opinion’ on what defines a lager beer.

As for me I agree with the “fermented with a lager yeast strain” part of the above.

I suppose each BA gets to choose here!?!

Cheers!

@speakorspasm

 

I too have heard that the yeast sourced by Ken Grossman to start brewing Sierra Nevada beers was originally a Ballantine yeast (but from a third party yeast vendor) but there always seems to be a 'debate' as to whether it was the Ballantine Ale yeast strain or the Ballantine Beer (aka lager) yeast strain.

I have a question into a person that is scheduled to interview Ken Grossman soon on this topic. Hopefully I (we) will learn more here.

Cheers!