In the current issue, from a wonderful article about mixed culture saison, they write of saison and mixed culture saison, “Both are or have been called "saisons." But do they really have anything in common? We're talking about those complex beers made with blends of yeast and bacteria, often barrel-aged, occasionally fruited, and sometimes blended before packaging. The modern versions don't have a widely accepted name, but many breweries call them "saisons" or even "farmhouse ales" because they're inspired by the idea of those farmers making rustic beers in the Wallonian countryside (see "Saison: A Story in Motion," beerandbrewing.com). Yet in fundamental ways, the two versions are not just unrelated— they're almost polar opposites.” Another champion takes up our glorious goal of Saison style specification. Victory is inevitable. Join the cause! #SplitUpSaison
This thread is likely going to evolve into some discussion about whether a split should or should not occur. I can't see any argument against a split, so why hasn't it happened? And secondly, what name will be used for each of these definitely unique styles? Logically, it would seem that Farmhouse Ales should be used for the mixed-culture 'wild' version because it's likely that many of the outcomes of a beverage created by an unsophisticated farmer would have become sour from unsanitary, open-air brewing conditions, so Farmhouse should be a natural call. By default the non 'wild' ale would attain the 'Saison' designation. Make sense?
Slippery slope. What if you ferment in SS but use Brett? You're producing a funky beer that isn't sour, so how do you classify that? I'm not a fan of having a bunch of substyles when just putting an adjective in front of saison and a description on the bottle/can will tell you all you need to know. I'm all about it when we're trying to separate apples from oranges (West Coast IIPAs vs NEIPAs, traditional American Imperial Stouts vs Pastry Stouts), but with Saison being such a broad style, which Belgian brewers have said "All whims are accepted with Saison", where do you draw the line?
I think splitting up saison into Mixed Culture vs Traditional would be the line. We already got Grisette out of Saison so that helps, now to finish the movement! #SplitUpSaison
But will we further need to break that up into Brett, Brett plus Lacto, Brett plus Pedio, Brett plus Lacto and Pedio, Traditional plus lacto, etc.?
There already is a Brett Beer category. And no I would think not. Like you said earlier we don't split up imperial stout by ingredients, why would we saison?
A Saison with Brett is very different than a Brett only beer, and it is very different than a Saison with souring bacteria. They are all still Saisons, though. I don't know if or where the split should be. If you make the split, you open Pandora's Box, and at a certain point, you have to recognize Saisons with spices, and then whether or not it's a standard Saison with spices or a mixed ferm with spices, and how is that different than a standard Saison or a mixed ferm that doesn't use spices. Is the level of spice the dividing line, and who draws it? Where are the lines drawn? How would you categorize any beer from Fantome, or something like Moinette Brune? They are very much Saisons, but don't really have much in common with what we think of as a Saison, outside of yeast expression.
This is true with every style then. I think a split between mixed culture vs traditional works because they are so different.
Because there are so many expressions of mixed culture in the saison world, I don't know that it actually would help clarify anything, it would only lead to more Balkanization. Maybe just press brewers to be more descriptive on labels.
Forgetting the term Farmhouse for now and to keep things simple, how about using Saison - Traditional and Saison - Cultured? Traditional can include any ingredient that flavors the beer such as coriander, lemon, green tea, etc. that aren't a dramatic flavor, and the Cultured version would include any saison that has a sour or wild character to it. At least the Cultured name would alert the beer consumer to a significant non-traditional experience.
Labeling one thing as "traditional" strikes me as deliberately shooting oneself in the foot. In my mind, the categorization issue is really about an overapplication of a term (to both Belgian beers and non-Belgian beers). Subcategories intensify that overapplication, but I understand how there's no turning back anyway.
But here we review to style, and comparing a sour new world mixed culture saison to a yeasty dare I say bready old world belgian saison is crazy to me. Both are buckets or "styles" are wonderful and have artistic brewing heights. Let's let them shine! Give me a top 100 list of both "kinds" of saison! #SplitUpSaison
Funny you'd say that because the craziest thing to me is how anybody would change their review of a beer due to a BeerAdvocate style designation switch for a beer where the beer design, brewer intent, and product marketing hasn't changed. People have their priorities backwards IMO. Just to be clear though, I'm not arguing against your desires and consistent campaign. I don't care all that much if BA adds or doesn't add another category. I do care when I feel like the system hurts our understanding of the categories though. I'm not saying "splitting saison" would do that, but I do think calling one "traditional" isn't the best choice. If "splitting saison" results in people declaring that Saison De Pipaix "isn't to style," then the approach went wrong. For me, the treatment of BA categories as gospel (or the desire for it) is problematic.
You need to read more fellow BAs reviews and think about what styles dominate the top of the charts if you think that we review to style here.
Yes this is all correct. It’s hard to describe all the nuances of the beer review when the styles are so large. So yes I think we are on the same page here
I do realize the standard explained in how to review a beer vs. reality are quite divergent. Lagers never seem to score high enough from example. But in talking about style reform I want to stick to the ideals of our online community. I have a dream of highly rated lagers, and multiple saison categories!
Lol apparently I should have. I try my best to review to style like competition judges do but in the end it is all subjective. This is why the top 100 beers per style is so much more helpful than the top 250 general list. Just had a roggenbier recently that was awesome, but would NEVER appear in any list besides the best roggenbiers. So let’s get a non-sour saison list next, we need to know what is the 77th best Belgian saison! #SplitUpSaison
It may be hard to split, but they are definetly 2 very different and distinct beers. Some of my favorite beers of all time are the mixed fermented variety but they are so hard to find unless you know the usual brewers that make them (HF, Crooked Stave, Suarez, Resident Culture, Side Project…many others I’m missing I’m sure). None of those are in my distribution area.
