If you wanted an IPA, why not just drink an IPA instead of drinking some bastardized 'hybrid'? This is what I fail to understand.
Its really beers drinkers overobsession with all things 'hoppy' and brewers bending towards those preferences and bastardizing (ie. - overhopping/dry hiopping) styles that aren't meant to be overly hoppy. You can call it a 'pilsner' if you want to, but its really an IPL at that point.
Oh. You mean American Pilsner. I've been advocating for this sub-style for quite some time. I will not cave in.
From the above linked article: “The year is 2016, the city is Los Angeles, and Highland Park brewers Bob Kunz and Tim McDonnell need to fill a specialty cask of beer. They survey their available tanks: In one, a West Coast IPA; in the other, the brewery’s house beer, Refresh Pilsner. The pair decide to combine the two at a 50/50 ratio. The result: a beer with the hop character of a West Coast IPA and the easy drinkability of a pilsner. It electrifies them both.” Has anybody seen this brewery cocktail offered at a brewery’s taproom? The next ‘new shiny thing’? Cheers!
I hear ya old man, but I don't think those clouds can But for real, there are definitely cases of breweries that don't have the technical chops to make a solid classic Pilsner that have done this kind of thing just to have a "pilsner" on their menu. That's what I think of as the IPL, over hopped and poorly made pale lager. But there are also plenty of these beers that use classic Pilsner brewing techniques and a traditional Pilsner grain bill and only deviate from a traditional recipe by replacing old European hop varieties with modern aroma varieties. And in that case I don't see why something like "New World" or "American" Pilsner isn't the proper naming convention.
I have not, interestingly enough though I saw The Seed's "WC Pils" (Diamonds Shinin', hops: citra, cascade, centennial) was just listed as available at the beer store down the street. Price dependent it may be my beer for NBW, we'll see, their beers tend to go $$$. ------ I guess I don't want an IPA, their usually too high in abv for me, I prefer drinkable lower abv options. This new spin on style gives that to me, if it is well made and has the bitter citrus and pine that I love...am I reaching for one every night, no, that is what my refrigerator's continuous supply of Troegs Sunshine Pils is for. PS...thanks for the read @hefeweizass I'll be reading that when I have a minute.
If so, I look forward to reading your post. I have only had a handful of beers from The Seed at various beer festivals (e.g., Logjammin') and I have enjoyed drinking all of those beers. On a somewhat related note at the past Saturday's German Bierfest in Philly I had a long conversation with the brewer of a new Philly area brewery, Concordance Ferments, and during our discussion of malt vendors I asked if he ever brewed with local malts (he has not). I suggested that maybe he consider malts from Rabbit Hill Malting (Shiloh, NJ) since all of the beers from The Seed that were brewed with Rabbit Hill malts have been very good - excellent for my palate. The brewer pulled a notepad out of his back pocket and wrote down "Rabbit Hill". Cheers!
We're going back and forth on naming conventions then. The beer you just described to me that you pfefer to drink is an IPL. Or at least I wish brewers who choose to make this sort of thing would call it, instead of calling it a "pilsner". When I am out an about, I would prefer to drink a true blue pilsner and not an IPL.
Here's some more interesting reading around this very topic: https://www.beerandbrewing.com/hoppy-lagers-are-on-the-clock
Some extracts from the above linked article: “Owner and brewer Vinnie Cilurzo says he was an early skeptic of the style, despite the brewery’s long success with STS Pils—which technically could be considered an Italian-style pilsner, though they don’t market it as one.” Kudos to Vinnie Cilurzo for not marketing STS as a so-called Italian Pilsner. STS is a German Pilsner but with the addition of dry hopping as discussed on their website: “STS Pils is a classic German-style pilsner with a Russian River twist because we dry hop this beer with a small amount of European hops.” https://www.russianriverbrewing.com/brew/sts-pils/ And: “Is it West Coast pilsner, Italian-style pilsner, India pale lager (yes, still a thing), some variation on those, or something else?” In the book Modern Lager Beer by Jack Hendler & Joe Connolly there is mention of “Hoppy Lager” in that book. Maybe the ‘best’ answer is to just detail a lager that is brewed using New World aroma hops (akin to an IPA) as being a “Hoppy Lager”? Cheers!
Kinda interesting it still won as one - I guess that emphasizes the complexity of the situation, and that probably there's not a one size fits all solution.
But IPL is itself a somewhat modern creation as a style too. Someone 10-15 years could just as easily chastise Jack's Abby for desecrating the sacred name of traditional lager styles and suggest they should call Hoponious Union, Mass Rising, etc. IPAs instead. Honestly I kind of appreciate the west coast pils categorization as for years it felt like some craft breweries would throw modern hops in their pilsners and you'd have no idea in advance due to the use of a generic pilsner label. I'm much more ambivalent about New Zealand Pilsner or New Zealand IPA as categories though as I don't see the informational value of styles based simply on the hops' country of origin, particularly since New Zealand hops are quite diverse.
Yeah I get the frustration about shifting expectations of traditional styles through mislabeling. I just think that as long as there's a modifier like "west coast" or "new world" or something to communicate that you're not gettinga beer meant to be experienced as a traditional Czech/German Pilsner then I'm good with it. Honestly, I think the IPL name is just clunky and doesnt work well from a marketing perspective so breweries aren't gonna use it. I like the Cold IPA style designation, but I also realize that a lot of brewers will see a distinction between that and a "west coast pilsner" based on process and ingredient issues (although some won't make that distinction). At the end of the day, naming conventions are really just about communicating appropriate expectations to the consumer so that they aren't negatively surprised. As long as beer styles and brewery brand namers accomplish that I'm good with whatever it settles out on
No. There are plenty of newer hops to play around with, and it's a style very ripe to poke holes in by using them.
And in that same exact competition SNPA won a Gold Medal for the ESB category: “Gold Pale Ale Sierra Nevada Brewing Co. - Chico Extra Special Bitter Chico CA” Can you explain that to me? How does an American Pale Ale win Gold for an English style beer (ESB)? Cheers!
https://vinepair.com/articles/how-sierra-nevada-pale-ale-won-best-extra-special-bitter/ I read this whole article, and it's still not really clear why except for "well, the judges said so."
As always, I'm all for drinking (and brewing) what you like. I actually don't mind these beers and they mostly remind me of the rare extremely good India Pale Lager from a few years ago. But that's where the problem arises. Remember IPL's? It was a stupid name and people have all but abandoned it. Yet it still lingers here and elsewhere. Taking up space next to a bunch of other beers that are mostly the same idea but ever so slightly different. All claiming to be a newer style name that is destined to be just as dated in a few more years. There's nothing wrong with having and using more general deer style names. You can name or describe your actual beer whatever you want, but don't clog style names up any more than they already are. It's not a matter of saying these beers are bad or not creative or not unique or whatever. It's just a matter of stopping the further proliferation of beer style names that are going to be abandoned in 5 years.
