Monsambacher (?)

Discussion in 'Germany' started by gillagorilla, Sep 24, 2014.

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  1. einhorn

    einhorn Savant (1,175) Nov 3, 2005 California

    In the US, bold flavors are currently "in", there's no doubt. But which is better? The Germans have spent the last 20-30 years taking the flavor out of their beer. Truly anti-cyclical developments.
     
  2. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Dumbing up is just as bad as dumbing down. It's not a competition for which dumbness is better. And only one is calling itself "craft" beer. :wink:
     
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  3. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    I could understand the appeal if the product contained a normal amount of alcohol (for people who don't like beer), but when it's practically non-alcoholic as well I just don't see the purpose it serves, or its appeal. If people want a watered down version of a regular beer with little alcohol I could see them opting for a leicht, at least those bear some ressemblance to beer. I just don't understand how fruit flavored low abv beverages can work as a substitute for beer.
     
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  4. einhorn

    einhorn Savant (1,175) Nov 3, 2005 California

    By saying that they are not "coaxing" flavors out of their raw materials is implying that someone else is (the Germans), and it's simply not the case.

    Also, if you ask me, most US brewers are getting a lot of flavors out of the malts & hops which is why it's different than BMC. Just guessing, but I would say that 90% of US craft beer is brewed according to RHG.
     
  5. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    If they are getting enough, say, coffee and chocolate flavors out of their roasted malts, then why add real coffee and chocolate? Obviously the U.S. "craft" drinking public wants more....

    The RHG stipulates that only naturally produced CO2 can be used to carbonate the beer. I doubt even 1% of U.S. "craft" beer is produced that way.
     
  6. einhorn

    einhorn Savant (1,175) Nov 3, 2005 California

    Sorry, but almost no German beers use only their own CO2. They collect it to save money, but augment with CO2 from the CO2 factory.
     
  7. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Do you have documentation that definitively proves this claim? Also, I assume the CO2 from the "factory" (not sure what this means) was produced naturally as a part of the fermentation process. Otherwise, this is a clear violation of the RHG. I have read about many things German brewers do that would seem to violate the RHG (use of Sinamar, hop extract, etc.), but I have never heard nor read the claim that they use artificially produced CO2.

    EDIT: just found this:

    Da gibt's rieeeesige Fabriken für, der Volksmund nennt sie auch Brauereien! [​IMG]

    Überall wo etwas in größeren mengen vergoren wird wird auch das entstehende Kohlendioxid aufgefangen gereinigt und verarbeitet. Wobei Brauereien das meiste dann selber verwenden, z.B. zum Karbonisieren, Vorspannen, Leerdrücken, Abfüllen... Aber aus Erfahrung weiß ich, dass auch die CO2 Lagertanks in Brauereien mal leer werden können, und dann wird auch angeliefert. Dieses CO2 muss dann eben aus einer Gärung entstanden sein, sonst dürfte es nicht ins Bier.

    @ Jakobus
     
    #27 herrburgess, Oct 1, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014
  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Oh boy, another US craft beer vs. German beer debate.:slight_frown:

    Non-cheers!
     
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  9. gillagorilla

    gillagorilla Pooh-Bah (2,691) Feb 27, 2013 Maryland
    Pooh-Bah

    Well, the Schöfferhofer Grapefruit Weizen-Mix was not on the list going in, so I had no knowledge of what it was. If I had looked at its listing before going, then I probably wouldn't have ordered it. A 79-rated year-round Hefeweizen does not spark my interest. I might have gotten it to compare to the Steigl Radler. It wasn't on-tap Friday, but was one of like 8 new beers on tap Saturday. It sounded interesting (Max's can have some interesting descriptions that more often than not lead me to try a beer) and my friend there recommended it (he is a regular at Max's with the most beers consumed in their Beer Club, 1,000+, and this is his favorite festival [he loves his lager]). I mainly used it as a palate cleanser in between other beers.

    This is how they were described on the list:

    Steigl Radler > Grapefruit Radler (Available in Steins)
    Schöfferhofer Grapefruit Hefeweizen > Hefeweizen w/ Grapefruit (Available in Steins and Boots)

    Not seeing the word Radler in the description; I thought this was just a Hefeweizen brewed with grapefruit (not a blend/mix). Yes, I enjoyed it and would probably buy a six-pack to bring to an outdoor party, but that is definitely not my go to style. I will at least say that Germans actually know how to make a damn good radler (or Gemischtgetränke/mixed drink). I didn't know that radlers were looked down upon in Germany. Of the few American mixed drinks that I've tasted, they are all syrupy and sweet. Also, the few American shandies that I've tasted are horrible. The only good one that I've had was Harpoon's Big Squeeze Shandy, which actually is probably the closest American beer to the Schofferhofer (it also has about the same rating). But I think as you can tell from the ratings for these beers, even Americans don't rate them quite highly. Maybe I enjoyed it because even your bad Weizens are that much better than our standard ones (not like we have too many of them that are widely distributed). I don't really hunt out for lagers though, and you really have to if you want to find good American ones.

    p.s. I love grapefruits (my father is from Florida, and we used to get a case of Florida citrus sent up each summer from his side of the family).
    p.s.s. I would love to try those other flavors though, but just the once.
     
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  10. gillagorilla

    gillagorilla Pooh-Bah (2,691) Feb 27, 2013 Maryland
    Pooh-Bah

    Sorry, but all it seemed to take was me trying and enjoying one beer.

    It is still impressive how different each of these beers can taste, even within just the limited frame of a single style. Lots of nuances, but not for the novice palate. I still have trouble with lagers, but I don't have too many over the course of a year; until I'm bombarded during Germanfest. However, I realize that some of the available beers are better or more true to form than others. But I think you can see how highly people think of these beers from the general average present at this festival. I mean most beers on the list were 85 or higher.
     
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  11. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    I don't think you need to apologize for either liking the beer or possibly initiating a debate about German Biermixgetraenke. If you like grapefruit flavors, I would expect you to like them in a Radler as well as in a grapefruity IPA (or even an IPA brewed with grapefruit, like Stone's recent offering).
     
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  12. einhorn

    einhorn Savant (1,175) Nov 3, 2005 California

    Sorry for the thread hijack Gorilla...

    I will check with a few brewer colleagues and get back to you. As I recall from my school days, it was decided that "industriell hergestelltes CO2" has the exact same natural composition of CO2 created by fermentation, so there is no chemical difference to speak of.

    Christian Bosch (Bosch Brauerei) just told me that almost no German brewery under 100,000 HL has a (hold onto your German hats) "Kohlensäusrerückgewinnungsanlage" because it costs more to collect than to buy.

    Could be in the Lebensmittelgesetz or in the Zusatzstoff-zulassungsverordnung, not sure.
     
  13. gillagorilla

    gillagorilla Pooh-Bah (2,691) Feb 27, 2013 Maryland
    Pooh-Bah

    I do love me some grapefruit-y IPA's. I can't wait to see how Stone Berlin comes along. I think I'm going to go grab some grapefruits. All this talk has made me crave some.

    No worries, it happens. I don't mind the evolution of this thread.

    p.s. I've also never heard of a coke/beer mixture, just the rum & coke classic. Does it matter what kind of beer? It sounds interesting. I do have a Natural Light that someone left over that I need to get rid of.
     
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  14. danfue

    danfue Initiate (0) Sep 16, 2012 Germany

    Really? This has been around here for some 20 or so years. Usually a Pilsner is used, but given the extreme sweetness of Coke, it wouldn't really matter. I think, on the Niederrhein (the Düsseldorf-Duisburg-Western Ruhr-area) they use cheap and bad Altbier (like Diebels) and call it a Krefelder.
    In the southwest and in France, red wine with Coke is also a popular mixed drink. I also heard about people mixing rather sour, dry white wine (like Riesling) with Coke.
     
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  15. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Saw my first around 1992 -- nearly gagged. :wink: Figured it must have been around longer than that.
     
  16. gillagorilla

    gillagorilla Pooh-Bah (2,691) Feb 27, 2013 Maryland
    Pooh-Bah

    Despite the general American populace's love for macros and alcopops (and more recently that of Shandies), we do seem to like to keep our soda and our beer separate; despite the combination of a Budweiser and a Coke seeming like the easiest to make and most American creation ever. The bastardization of cheap whiskey by Coke doesn't seem to bother us though. Already blended alcoholic beverages don't seem to bother us, but ask us to blend it ourselves and it is unheard of.

    I will say that this blend of Coke and Natural Light is definitely an improvement over just Natural Light and probably Coke by itself also (just too sweet). It almost reminds me of a sweet-version of the malt beverage from the likes of Goya or Swedish Julmust. It is however quite ugly. I think it has to do with the opposing nature of their heads, with the proteins of the beer coagulating and forming a weird pockmarked surface that almost doesn't dissipate.

    I will report back with how it goes with different red wines. I don't have any open white wines or any that I would wish to abuse in this manner, so that will have to wait.

    p.s. Most of my friends don't drink, but my parents hadn't heard of it either.
     
  17. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany
    In Memoriam

    A popular drink in Bavaria is the so called "Goaßmaß" which is basically half a liter of coke, half a liter of dark beer and 2 or 3 shots of Cherry liquor. Makes you drunk fast, gives you a raging headache for 3 days and when you puke it back up (which, after the usual dose of 5 or 6 of those babies you WILL) it's even worse than you would imagine from my already colourful description.

    Recently I've seen this premixed and bottled in a Getränkemarkt. My gut reacted with a rather violent contraction even though the last time this vile mix has gone down my gullet was 35+ years ago... *cringe*
     
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  18. boddhitree

    boddhitree Pooh-Bah (1,839) Apr 13, 2008 Germany
    Pooh-Bah

    What I find even funnier is that people here at BA seem to bash the Lime-Bud or whatever it's called, but seem to rate (quite highly on BA) Schöfferhofer's Grapefruit Weizen, though they're basically the same thing: a beer/juice cocktail! It's one thing to brew with fruit juice, for then the yeast has its influence on the flavor outcome by consuming the sugars in the juice, but to simply dump juice and filtered/pasteurized beer together... where's the art in that? The only reason Schöfferhofer's Grapefruit Weizen got on the tap list in the first place in an American Craft Beer fest is sheer ignorance of German beer by American Craft Beer enthusiasts. Whether it tastes good or not is another topic, and for me, it tastes horrible.

    There are so many good American hops which impart all kinds of intense fruit flavors and become integrated into its flavor because they're added during the brewing process, which makes me wonder why add juice AFTER the pasteurization process?

    Unless... it's 1) cheaper or 2) it appeals to the same folks who are Red Bull & cocktail drinkers. Guess what... the answer is #2. It's the Radeburger Gruppe's lame attempt to lure women and the teen/20-something crowd who drink only cocktails and Red Bull mixed with vodka or whatever, who eschew beer as an old fashioned drink of their granddads, and give them a low alcohol alternative.

    According to my student, Schöfferhofer's lineup, which also includes their true Weizen, is their best selling brand. That's unfortunate for 2 reasons. 1) a mixed drink is outselling all beer brands, which is the staple of the brewery business, and 2) The above-mentioned target groups still aren't drinking beer and beer sales are still declining rapidly in Germany per annum. Do you know what Radeburger's best seller is in the Jever line-up? Jever Fun, a non-alcoholic beer.

    Nonetheless, @gillagorilla, I hope you got to try the Mahrs Bräu beers, the Fritz Ales and the Freigeist beers, as well as the Schneider Weisse beers and the Weissenhoe. Sorry to have been a downer to your thread. Again, I just wish they'd serve them in bars or other places here in Germany.
     
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  19. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
    Pooh-Bah

    That's not what I've read. Back a hundred years or so ago I saw arguing in a technical publication that CO2 collected from a fermentation because it also contained some flavour compounds was superior to that produced industrially.
     
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  20. einhorn

    einhorn Savant (1,175) Nov 3, 2005 California

    I have an inquiry in to Dr. Wolfgang Stempfl, a brewing guru and headmaster @ Doemens, and I hope he can shine some light on the topic at hand.
     
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