Averagely Perfect Saison - Brett Pitch Rate Sidebar

I have used 100ml starter from dregs for bottling with good results. I have also pitched slurry from 400ml slurry X 5 pitched at primary alongside Sacc Saison strains with lower than expected results.

 

The only time I have done it this way is with Orval dregs, which I stepped up from a bottle to a 1L starter. Of course, that would be mixed dregs. Not much help here, I'm afraid.

 

I co pitched one vial of wlp644 with one vial , no starter for either, wlp saison 1, the 644 is the dominant of the two strains for sure in a pils wheat 50/50 grist at 1.055 gravity. wish I had some bottles to sample tonight to give a better report.

 

By this do you mean the beer finished lower than expected or you weren't as pleased with your results as you had anticipated.

 

Not as pleased. I kegged it and left it at room temp for nearly 4 month in a warm garage, and the funk was still super low. I also did my Solera fill with a similar pitch rate, did 500ml of 6 strains into 5 gallons, and added that to 10 gallons of Wild Sacc fermented base beer in the 15 gallon barrel. It has much more funk. But all of this is also strain dependent... I used different strains in each of these scenarios.

 

Gotcha, I think I'm going to do something similar. I'll probably do a split batch and follow whatever the recipe comes out to be exactly and then I'll add multiple brett strains to the other half (have Brett Cust, Lamb & brux trois on hand now).

 

I'm not sure if this helps or adds to the confusion, but Chad picked these pitching rates for his experiments.
http://www.brettanomycesproject.com/dissertation/pure-culture-fermentation/impact-of-pitching-rate/

Unfortunately I don't think the 'brett' we picked is in his experiment

 

I believe that 644 is similar/same as BS-Drie.

 

I'm sure you've dug deeper than me, but I have low regard for what White Labs recommends. On the 644 vial (I'm holding one now) it clearly states, "use 1 vial for 5 gallons of beer", which most of us know is poor advice. When I pitched it as primary strain I took OldSock's advice and made stepped starters. It was suggested a starter of 644 will reproduce slower than conventional Sacch. In my case it seemed to rise/fall at about the same rate. To be sure I gave it some more time but it behaved rather normal.

This is not a dig at your research and conclusions, rather a zinger directed at the bio-chemists walking up and down the halls at White Labs who guard these secrets like it's the key to Ft Knox. Don't they know it's the customers who pay their salary?

This may be safest approach. In my digging around for pitch rates for 644 I found sources advocating a much reduced pitch rate (when used as primary). Can only imagine the hornet's nest a cell-count poll would stir up . . . suspect you won't get a nice bell curve here.

And if 1.033 wins the 644 will be pitched "muy rapido" after the 3724. Ironically the step-starter for the second yeast pitched (644) will have to precede the starter for the first yeast. How many stir plates/flasks do most homebrewers have ready for duty? Gang of 39, are you taking all this in?

 

In the eggheads defense, I seem to remember reading somewhere that their recommended pitching rate for brett was for a secondary pitch, not a primary pitch. One vial as a primary pitch would clearly be underpitching, but would likely be appropriate as a secondary pitch.

 

On the vial it makes no reference to primary or secondary. Just says to pitch it into 5 gallons (regardless of OG). No where on White Labs website is this addressed (if I'm missing it, someone please post). An internet search on the subject will take you to places like Mad Fermentationist and some threads on this forum which have useful information. But I've seen nothing from the mfg.
Q. What do you call an egghead in a lab coat?
A. Egghead, silly

 

FWIW, below is an answer from a FAQ concerning WLP653 Brettanomyces lambicus

“A: As far as the WLP653, this yeast is not meant for primary fermentation and is much slower than sacchromyces. We suggest you use standard brewing yeast for primary and pitch the Brett at the end of the fermentation. If you do use in the primary, you need a higher cell count and would need to pitch about 3 times as much as normal. And it would take a good deal longer to ferment. Brettanomyces also likes higher fermentation temps, so at least 75 degrees and ideally 85.”

Cheers!

 

644 and BSI Drie are the same strain, just White Labs isolate of it. Chad uses that strain quite a bit, I believe it is one of the strains in his house blend for primary fermentations.

 

644 and BSI-Drie are objectively not the same strain. They're not even from the same genus of yeast. 644 is Saccharomyces cerevisiae and BSI-Drie is Brettanomyces. The attached picture shows plate streaks of 644 and BSI-Drie on YPD (left plate) and YPD containing cycloheximide (right plate). Most Brettanomyces can grow in the presence of cycloheximide while Saccharomyces cannot. On each plate, 644 is on the left, BSI-Drie is on the right. As expected, both strains grow on YPD. 644 does not grow on cycloheximide while BSI-Drie grows slowly. Moreover, when propped with aeration, BSI-Drie lags for a day or two and ultimately produces a lot of acetic acid -- a tell-tale sign of Brett. 644 takes off quickly and does not produce acetic acid (perhaps a decent amount of ethyl acetate, however).

 

Thanks for the informed reply.

Related: Any chance you have time to count the cells in a vial of WLP644? If you're following this thread(s), you'll see we are in need of a hemocytometer-trained brewer.

 

This is good stuff, so this test shows that these two are not the same.

And it sounds like 644 could be yeast but it's not conclusive. You say "most brett can grow in the presence of cycloheximide". 644 could be one of those brett's that cannot grow in cycloheximide. Is there further testing that can be done to make it conclusive?

Sounds like you might be investigating the question of whether 644 is sach or brett. Do you happen to have the answer? I'm tired of waiting for WL to answer. ;-)

 

There was a recent thread about the WL Sacch/Brett controversy regarding 644 here.

 

No need to wait for WL. Several independent sources have verified that 644 is Saccharomyces cerevisiae:

http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.fi/2014/12/brett-trois-riddle-wrapped-in-mystery.html
http://beer.suregork.com/?p=3598
Synopsis and link to Charles River sequencing results here: http://embracethefunk.com/2014/12/11/brettanomyces/