Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #22 - Brett Amount

No starter, I want to taste some dupont in there.

 

Half liter starter. I want to make sure the Brett is viable.

 

1/2 liter starter, I already have some 644 in the fridge and just need to step it up

 

I chose no starter, single fresh vial, and I'm from the 1.012 gang. I'm hoping to slow the start up of the brett to give the sach more time to lower the SG before the brett kicks in. Also I think the lower pitch rate of the brett might give it some more funk. Plus it will be much more convenient.

 

Can someone please inform me what the cell count is at packaging for WLP644? This info seems relevant to this poll.

I just read on another forum that it is << than the cell count for a standard White Labs Saccharomyces vial, as apparently WL packages lower cell counts for their Brett products (please ignore the controversy and address my question). I looked for some confirmation on the White Labs pages but have so far come up with nothing.

 

Peter,

Michael Tonsmiere intimates that a WLP644 vial contains 3 billion yeast cells:

“The biggest challenge of fermenting with only Brett is growing enough cells to pitch. While suggestions vary, most brewers pitch somewhere between ale and lager cell counts. I bought from White Labs, so I had to grow 3 billion cells into close to 150 billion. A two stage starter on my stir-plate at around 80 F was enough to do the job in about 10 days.”

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/07/100-brett-trois-ipa-recipe.html

Perhaps Michael (@OldSock) will chime in to confirm.

Cheers!

Jack

 

Not looking forward to making a huge starter if we do this.. I'm feeling lazy a bit. Pitch early and let it age up a bit.

However, a one step starter pitched at high krausen might be good too.

 

Absolutely relevant, but I have concluded that until some member here breaks out a hemocytometer and does some counting the answer is "no".

I searched the topic hi and lo recently when using 644 as a primary strain and this is the only official guidance I found from White Labs:

Nothing else of use on their website. Ending up using the criteria from MF (3B/vial) because he seemed the most knowledgeable (two steppers, extended time).

If the 3B/vial figure is accurate (Vikeman estimates 1.75B in the Sidebar Tread), how do the No-Starter voters think this puny amount will stand up to ~150B hyper-active 3724'ers that have a head start? If the label shown above is accurate (1vial/5gal) a stepped starter will produce about four times what is needed, i.e. the mother-of-overpitching.

White Labs should be giving us (recipe builders) a grant to figure some of this stuff out . . . would even be willing to include the Gang of 39 . . .

 

Portlargo, I like your counting brett idea. I'll plan to do that with my pitch.

Does anyone else out there have a hemocytomer and is willing to count? It would be nice to have a few data points.
Also, any info on counting brett? same process as yeast I assume? I'll google it up.

 

The process for counting brett would be the same. I do not have access to that type of equipment anymore or I could help out.

 

This comes a little late and is not exactly illuminating, but I just got a confirmation from white labs that acknowledges a lower number of cells as the strain is intended for secondary pitching. No cell count provided.

 

Maybe it would great if somebody did a scientific study of yeast cell count of a factory fresh yeast pack and see how many viable yeast cells exist thereafter on a per month basis?

Cheers!

 

On the White Labs website there is a Troubleshooting Questionnaire. I submitted the following questions:

The 644 vial appears to have less quantity than your normal Sacch vials.
1. How many cells do you estimate in a 644 vial?
2. Should viability be adjusted for age?
3. What guidelines do you recommend for pitch rate for an
American Pale Ale when 644 is used as primary strain?

The label on the 644 vial recommends a ferm temp of 70 - 75 while your website has an optimum ferm
temp of 70 -85.
4. What esters/phenols should be expected and how does temp affect this?

Any insight you can provide would be appreciated.

Just received an answer from their Customer Service. Suspect this isn't a response from a chemist/micro-type but the answer below is technically a WL official position:

The vials are intended for secondary fermentation, so if you want to use it for primary you should be okay with getting two vials. The recommended pitch temperature is different from the optimal temperature for the strain. The higher your fermentation temperatures the more esters and phenols you will get.

I will not lament on the shallowness of the response, but if you go to the Urban Dictionary and look up "mushroom management" you will see this is a perfect fit. Maybe I should have told 'em I knew VikeMan . . .

 

"Maybe I should have told 'em I knew VikeMan . . ."

Whew, I can see the fear already!?!

Cheers!