Good vienna lagers

Ignore all the quibbling over semantics and at least try the Boston Lager.
If you like the Vienna style, you will like the Boston lager (malt forward lager)

I think a lot of people overlook it because it's everywhere and just looks like a cheap lager.
It's very good and rich, buttery, malty. I find new flavors and nuances everytime I try it.

 

Yeah, I always figured 1.056 was the cutoff myself, so it it just a touch on the hefty side, but in terms of flavor profile it comes across as much finer than a typical amber O'fest. They seem to have found a way to brew a fairly unique beer there.

 

They have the domestic 2-row/caramel malt flavor profile, along with noble hop presence. Brooklyn Lager has always advertised itself as a Pre-prohibition lager, but stylistically it is very similar to SABL.

 

Michael, IMO Sly Fox Oktoberfest is similar to Ayinger Oktoberfest.

This was a point of discussion between you and me in the past: http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/pale-craft-oktoberfest-beers.208208/#post-2746331

Cheers!

 

Yeah, but the Ayinger has that robust, toasty edge on the palate whereas Sly Fox is more rounded- so Sly Fox still seems to be closer to the border to me (if a border really exists, fwiw ). I did that tasting a few months ago:
http://www.beeradvocate.com/communi...-drinking-now-1085.342996/page-5#post-4142110

(the bolded parts I just added now for clarity.)

 

I have had discussions about this topic with Patrik (@Crusader) from a historical brewing perspective. The 'original' Koch beer (brewed by Jim's great-great-... grandfather) was brewed in the 1860s - 1870s. I could find no historical evidence that caramel malt was produced in the 1860s - 1870s. If this is true then the 'original' Koch beer would not have a "caramel malt flavor profile". Do you have some primary source information on whether the 'original' Koch beer was brewed using caramel malt?

There is no doubt that Jim Koch used caramel malt in producing Sam Adams Boston Lager (first brewed in the 1984). Caramel malt was a common ingredient in the 1980s.

So, in 'summary' the Sam Adams Boston Lager that Jim Koch produced in the 1980s was not exactly the same as the 'original' Koch beer of the 1860s - 1870s due to some differences in ingredient selection (unless you have 'better' information here).

Cheers!

 

I was recalling this post:
http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/samuel-adams-boston-lager.196003/page-3#post-2614824

So the caramel malt version has been around for awhile at least. I make no representation as to how accurately the modern beer approximates Koch's grandfather's recipe, but that seems to be beside the point. The 'style' classification for the Weiner beer, or at least a revival version of it, sure seems to fit.

 

Yes, I do recall that JK made that post. It would seem that there is some consistency between Sam Adams Boston Lager that that particular beer which was brewed in 1934.

JK did explicitly mention: "I don't know what malt(s) a pre-Pro US brewer would have used for their Vienna beer".

So far I have found no evidence that caramel malt was available to the Koch brewery of the 1860s - 1870s. To the best of my knowledge caramel malt was not an ingredient that was available in that timeframe. I feel safe in saying that a American brewed Vienna lager of the 1860s - 1870s would not have a caramel character due to caramel malt.

If during your studies you obtain information on how an American brewed Vienna Lager was brewed at the turn of the century (circa 1900) I would be interested in reading about it.

Cheers!

 

Sure- I wonder if Garrett Oliver would know since Brooklyn explicitly makes the claim that that is what they are emulating.

 

He is a smart guy. Do you have a contact information for him to ask?

Ironically, as you can read below, they label this beer as “American Amber Lager” to which I 100% concur. Also no caramel malt is explicitly listed in the Malts list.

The other aspect which is not historically correct is dry hopping (which is also what Boston Beer Company does wrt Sam Adams Boston Lager).

The more and more I think about it the beers of Sam Adams Boston Lager and Brooklyn Lager have brewing differences which are inconsistent with how an American Vienna Lager would have been brewed ‘back in the day’.

Cheers!

“Brooklyn Lager

In the late 1800’s Brooklyn was one of the largest brewing centers in the country, home to more than 45 breweries. Lager beer in the “Vienna” style was one of the local favorites. Brooklyn Lager is amber-gold in color and displays a firm malt center supported by a refreshing bitterness and floral hop aroma. Caramel malts show in the finish. The aromatic qualities of the beer are enhanced by “dry-hopping”, the centuries-old practice of steeping the beer with fresh hops as it undergoes a long, cold maturation. The result is a wonderfully flavorful beer, smooth, refreshing and very versatile with food. Dry-hopping is largely a British technique, which we’ve used in a Viennese-style beer to create an American original.

Style: American Amber Lager
Malts: Canadian 2-row
Hops: Hallertauer Mittelfrueh, Cascade
Alcohol by Volume: 5.2%
Original Gravity: 13° Plato
Food Pairings: Pizza, burgers, salads, steaks, Mexican food, roast chicken, barbecue, fried fish, pork, Chinese dishes, manchego, Stilton, farmhouse cheddar and mild Gruyere.
Availability: Year-round
Format: 15.5 gal kegs; 5.2 gal kegs; 24/12oz bottles; 12oz cans; 16oz cans

 

I dunno- that copy reads to me like they are saying it's an updated take on the American Vienna style (with caramel malts in the finish), which is all that I've been trying to get across- they shouldn't be seen through the lens of the Austrian original.

 

Surprised no one's mentioned Blue Point's Toasted Lager yet, though I don't really know what their distribution footprint looks like. It's probably my favorite beer from them, though that's not saying much. Karl Strauss Amber is also nice.

I'm also not ashamed to admit that Negra Modelo is actually pretty good.

I'll also pile another one on for Eliot Ness.

 

+1 for Great Lakes Eliot Ness

 

Looks like these have already been noted, but in no particular order I like:

SN Vienna Lager
Firebrick
SA Boston Lager (although not strictly a Vienna lager)

 

I second this, it is very good.

 

Michael, you previously posted: “Both SABL and Brooklyn Lager would best be described as revivals of what @jesskidden posted as the pre-pro Americanized Vienna style or Wiener beer.”

Now you are posting: “updated take on the American Vienna style”

If your motivation in this thread is to confuse me then you have certainly ‘achieved’ here.

So, at the risk of being further confused permit me to ask:

Are Sam Adams Boston Lager and Brooklyn Lager beers of the “Pre-Pro Americanized Vienna style”?

Or are Sam Adams Boston Lager and Brooklyn Lager beers of the “Updated take on the American Vienna style”.

Unless there is some new law of physics that I am unaware of there can’t be both.

Cheers!

 

Second one- sorry for the confusion. When I originally used the word 'revival' I meant that liberties were being taken (definitely with the hops)- so 'revival', 'updated take' are coming from the same place.

 

I was quite surprised when SN's Vienna was my favorite of the fall pack this year. Delightful. It's (sadly) not available outside the pack, however.

 

Fair enough.

Maybe we are just 'talking past each other here' but from my personal perspective:

Updated take on the American Vienna style = American Amber Lager.

Feel free to have your own personal take in this matter but for me I will agree 100% with Brooklyn brewing when they classify Brooklyn Lager as "Style: American Amber Lager".

Cheers!