First time home-bar keg owner looking for help

Discussion in 'Home Bar' started by ikthayt, Nov 20, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ikthayt

    ikthayt Initiate (0) Nov 20, 2017 Michigan

    I'm in process of building out a bar in my basement. I have already ordered a True TDD‐1‐S‐HC with the single-draw tower. But that's where I'm at...I know I need to get CO2, lines, regulator, etc. but want some recommendations on what to do/get. I want to do this right so my budget is a little flexible. I've done a lot of reading - but am really lost on the right equipment to buy. I feel in a lot of the articles I'm being sold something vs. recommended something - not knowing any better I am skeptical.

    Here's what I want to do - want to buy a dual draw tower to replace the single tap it comes with. I don't plan to have stout on tap (at least at first). I'm planning on doing lagers/ales/saisons/farmhouse ales/etc. - probably start with something more common place (Goose Island 312, Fat Tire) - but I LOVE Shorts' brewery beers (esp. Good Humans). Live in SE Michigan, so have great choices for getting beers. So I plan to have a single CO2 tank with a dual-regulator in case I need to tweak PSI for each separate keg. I understand those words, but I still don't know what to actually purchase - I start searching on amazon and get lost real quick.

    I've read a lot about stainless steel vs. chrome, anti-microbial lines, special lines for the CO2, etc. etc. I'm lost at where to start. I would love a good shopping list of must-haves vs. nice to haves vs. pure opulence.

    TL;DR: Have a kegerator, but need help with a shopping list of things to buy and what would you recommend:
    - Dual-tap tower
    - Beer and Gas lines
    - Gas regulator(s)
    - Cleaning kits/supplies
    - Good resources online for "How-To" set this all up, function it, clean it, etc.

    Thank you very much!
     
  2. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    I can recommend two vendors that can help a lot: Micromatic and KegConnection. Have dealt with both, good product selection and good customer service. Micromatic tends to be a little more expensive. There are probably other dependable vendors but I trust these two.

    Starting with your questions: If you have beers carb'ed to a different level you will need a dual-primary regulator. I.E, an IPA may have a pressure of 10-12psi while a Saison will be 14-16psi. These are easily available; at Micromatic pick from their premium regulators and at KC pick their Taprite brand (mine is going strong after 5+ years). For gas line you want 5/16ID red vinyl, should last a decade+, for beer line you want 3/16ID x 7/16OD (clear). Buy twice as much as you think you'll need 'cause you'll replace it every year or two.

    For CO2 tank, shop your local area for how it will be re-supplied. Many places are exchange only, some will do an actual refill (typically fire extinguisher outlets). If exchanging you may be able to "buy in", i.e. pay for a tank (used) and return it for a full one similar to propane exchange. If actually re-filling then you'll need to buy your own tank ... you will have to manage your hydro inspections but this isn't a deal breaker. Check your local prices, but almost always a bigger tank is cheaper to operate. You can't go wrong with a 20 lb'er, a great advantage is you typically go a year+ without touching it. Luxury would be having two 20 lb'ers.

    Regarding faucets/shanks: I use all stainless, initial cost is higher but cheaper in the long run. I recommend Perlick faucets, with simple maintenance/cleaning they will be pouring at your wake. For shanks stick with the ss . . . all of this is available through the two vendors listed above.

    I defer listing all the cleaning/accessories parts until you get closer . . . no show-stopper here. There are other posters on this Forum who can give better details regarding dual-towers and commercial couplers.

    Here's a primer on how Draft Beer works: http://www.draft-beer-made-easy.com/draftbeerequipment.html
    A couple more useful FAQ sites:
    https://www.micromatic.com/education/draft-beer-faqs
    https://www.kegconnection.com/documentation-how-to-videos/

    Will also defer on things like leaks/balancing until you are ready to put it all together.
     
    #2 PortLargo, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  3. DougC123

    DougC123 Savant (1,186) Aug 21, 2012 Connecticut

    What he said.
     
    ikthayt likes this.
  4. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Everything Largo says, times 2.

    For the dual faucet tower you will notice there can be quite a spread in cost. You will want to spend some good money on the tower if you can. A poorly made tower (or faucet for that matter) will remind you of the $30 you saved buying the plasticy not really chrome POS tower, every time you pull a beer. So like a good car or a fine piece of furniture the tower should be robust, satisfying. Thunk. The Perlick forward seal S/S faucet is absolutely my favorite, by a lot. The Micromatic S/S faucet (not a forward seal) is ridiculously well machined, heavy and also looks like it was pulled off of the Chrysler building. But if you like that...

    A known vendor will verify that their tower will fit the True kegerator. Most do, but there is some real cheap junk out there so do ask. There is some really atrocious hardware being sold to a price point. If you want to do it right buy name brand.

    "Anti microbial" mumbo jumbo. Bull Shit. Use vinyl "Beverage Line" and not ordinary hardware tube. For gas line, as Largo notes get 5/16" ID Red gas line. It stays flexible in the cold and is pressure rated. There is no magic here. Having installed a few thousand feet of draft line, trust me, it ain't brain surgery. Anti microbial? My beer has microbes? Should we worry? Yikes!

    Ask questions as needed. You look to be about twice as informed as the typical newbie. So good luck!
    Cheers.
     
    warrendietrich2001 and ikthayt like this.
  5. ikthayt

    ikthayt Initiate (0) Nov 20, 2017 Michigan

    Thank you! That primer is great.

    Now, reading this, and your above, would you recommend
    1) 2 CO2 tanks each with a standard regulator
    2) 1 CO2 tank with a dual regluator
    3) 1 CO2 tank with a standard regulator and a manifold
    I basically have a full cabinet area (so 3' x 3'-ish) in the corner under counter height (38") to store CO2 tanks, so I probably can fit 2. Again, I'd rather set this up right to begin with than do something cause that's what I pictured in my head.
     
  6. ikthayt

    ikthayt Initiate (0) Nov 20, 2017 Michigan

    Awesome - thank you. See this is what I meant by not really knowing what to be skeptical of or not. Some of it seemed like hooey to get me to buy more expensive tubing.
    Now that being said, my kegerator and most draft tower's I've seen come with tubing. I would assume that step 1 should be to replace said tubing, as it's probably not as high quality as buying and installing myself, right?
     
  7. DougC123

    DougC123 Savant (1,186) Aug 21, 2012 Connecticut

    #2, your answer is #2. You should get a second tank and keep it in reserve, because there is absolutely nothing worse than running out of gas when you go to get a beer.
     
    Redrover, matthewp and ikthayt like this.
  8. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    You really only need one tank in operation, the "spare" is for when you run out on Fri afternoon before a long weekend. The geometry of your setup should tell you which way to go. If your tank is mounted inside the kegerator you probably want a dual-primary. My tank is outside with a single primary, one line through the wall (collar) feeds a couple of secondary regulators. If you have a dual stage outside your unit that will require running two lines into the kegerator. So, take a hard look at where you have excess space and how you will snake the line(s). Be aware a manifold can feed an unlimited number of kegs but only at the same pressure. By adding a "wye" to an outlet you double the lines you run (again at the same press). Only if you step up to secondary regulators (more expensive) can you regulate pressure downstream from your primary. Be aware of the extra effort to have multiple pressures . . . they certainly serve a purpose (I use multiples) but some more hardware/expense is required.

    Don't let all these options spook you . . . for the most part all options have generic connections and can be added/deleted. Example: a single stage primary can have a second primary outlet added (making it dual stage), you can add a wye to an outlet giving you two outlets. I know Keg Connection will custom assemble any type options you need, if it's in their inventory they will put it together for you.

    My first action would be determine interior dimensions of kegerator and figure how many kegs it can hold, plus, is the tank going to be inside or out. Your unit may not have room for a 20 lb tank (?), or, maybe you want it outside. This will drive your tank selection. Check your area for "commercial gas distributors" and "fire extinguisher outlets". They will either have tanks or can give you directions to someone who has. Many posters here report buying a brand new tank from Amazon and the first thing they do is "exchange" it for a 30 year old tank. So learn if you'll be exchanging or refilling and what size you will be dealing with. Craigslist can be very helpful here.

    Most important is to not tell anyone you're getting a kegerator until it is setup and balanced. Many posters here have a unit delivered on Fri, their keg delivered Sat, and they ask how to have it ready for a Super Bowl party on Sun. With complete knowledge of the process and no snags along the way it should take about a week to get it balanced.
     
    ikthayt likes this.
  9. ikthayt

    ikthayt Initiate (0) Nov 20, 2017 Michigan

    Definitely keeping the tank(s) outside the kegerator. It's a True brand (TDD-1-S-HC...see img below), but the way the bar is being built will have room under-counter for the tanks and I'll plan to run lines. From all I've read, sounds like 20# tanks tend to be more economical in the longer term. I'm not sure if it has room to run in two lines or if I need to do the primary/secondary. If anyone has experience with the True brand who has done dual tap, I'd love some suggestions.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    If it is a decent tower, the tubing will be quality. It will be the exact same as what you buy separately. The most common brand is Accuflex. BevLex series 200 is specifically for this use.
    Another brand is Kuriyama. 3/16" ID and 7/16" OD. Cant miss. Avoid "Watts" branded, that's the stuff they sell at HD or Lowes, and it varies. Not always food grade. You want vinyl

    You will need some extra tubing, because you eventually replace the lines. Beer is food, and no matter how diligent you're cleaning it will need to be replaced eventually. You're going to love that part.

    Progress.
     
    ikthayt likes this.
  11. ikthayt

    ikthayt Initiate (0) Nov 20, 2017 Michigan

    So I spent some time on both sites putting together packages and decided on KegConnection and the following setup:
    2 Faucet Tower Commercial Kit
    Regulator and Distributors: Taprite Dual Body Regulator (RG022)+$53.00
    Gas Line: 8' Red Gas Hose for Wye and Dual Body Kits(HO1...
    Tower Shell: 2 Faucet Tower Premium (TW102SHELL) +20
    Shank Options: Stainless Steel Shank (SK501SS-Kit-2) +$12.00
    Tailpieces: Shank Connection Kit Stainless - 2 (TP316SS-Kit...
    Beer Line: Two 7' PVC Free Beer Line for Kits (HO316-14) +...
    Faucet 1: CMB V3S, Forward Seal, Creamer, SS Faucet, Comp...
    Faucet 2: CMB V3S, Forward Seal, Creamer, SS Faucet, Comp...
    Coupler 1: Sanke D Coupler, US Made Taprite (CO102) +6.00
    Coupler 2: Sanke D Coupler, US Made Taprite (CO102)+6.00
    CO2 Cylinders: No CO2 Cylinder
    Faucet Wrench: Deluxe Faucet Wrench for Faucet and Nut (FA800)...

    Also added an additional 32' of red gas line and 28' of additional beer line (i.e., can change out the lines twice on each).

    I tried to do the 'only SS touches the beer' approach, which I think the above accomplishes.

    Any comments/criticisms appreciated! And as always, thank you very much for the support and feedback - has been a great learning experience.
     
  12. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    You do know with a dual body regulator mounted outside the kegerator you will have to run two lines into the unit to the two kegs. That'll work, but my guess is your kegerator isn't set up for this (that really is a guess).

    Now for the nitpicking: You don't need shank tailpieces, your tower-shanks have a tailpiece built in. Have never used ultra barrier beer line, looks like it is 3 times the price of Bevlux . . . will let @billandsuz address this. Not familiar with the faucet you choose, but with Perlicks at the same price it would be an easy decision for me. I'm a homebrewer, so don't know difference in a Sanke coupler from a Sanka cup of coffee, but there are others here who can chime in.

    Philosophically speaking: You need to decide if you want your gas/beer connections to be made to "barbs" or to "male flare" (MFL) fittings. To attach a hose to a barb you heat the hose and slide it over the barb, when it cools it is attached. For liquids you are done, for gas you need a hose clamp. To remove you must cut it off (PITA). Advantage for barb is simpler . . . until you remove it. With a MFL fitting you will attach your hose to a swivel nut barb (1/4" for liquid, 5/16" for gas) by the same heat/shrink method, then simply screw the nut onto the threaded fitting. Very easy to attach/remove. But you have to buy the swivel nuts and a tiny teflon washer to make the seal. Some people use barbs for gas (it's rarely changed) and MFL for liquid. Or all barbs or all MFL . . . there is no perfect answer other than you don't want a mixed bag. Most of these fittings are interchangeable, you can swap anything out. But ideally you'd like to get it right the first time.

    Don't get too bogged down in the ordering process, I know Keg Connection will adapt any of their fittings or accessories to your order. They deal with new customers regularly, so don't be afraid to tell 'em what you want and let them massage any bumps in the shopping cart.
     
    ikthayt and billandsuz like this.
  13. DougC123

    DougC123 Savant (1,186) Aug 21, 2012 Connecticut

    One add - no need to change out gas lines. 32’ is waaaay over kill.
     
    ikthayt, PortLargo and billandsuz like this.
  14. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    I didn't go to far into the order but still I can tell this much.

    Barrier tubing is not the same as choker. Choker is vinyl and it is meant to add resistance. Barrier tubing is poly and it is meant to have little resistance. The barrier in barrier tubing is there to limit (eliminate) oxygen permeation into the liquid. There is no such thing as barrier choker. Choker is just thick vinyl, and it should be FDA. Meaning it wont leach plasticizer. SO... just get beverage line choker... aka 3/16" ID x 7/16" OD vinyl choker that is beverage line. There is no other choker and there is no other product that does the job. Every system requires resistance and every system has a length of choker. Vinyl choker is required in every system, always. (Barrier is what is used to get beer to the choker, and it is replaced every dozen years or so).

    Can't go wrong with Perlick Perls. The creamer option is not needed. You wont see it at your local or really any bar, anywhere, but if you like he idea go for it. It's not a bad thing.

    Stainless is a luxury but a pretty cheap upgrade, and as a general rule anything stainless is built much better too.

    You will never need to change gas line. 5 or 6 feet is plenty. Just enough to get the cylinder and regulator on the floor to change. Too much and you have to stuff it into the kegerator.

    That True kegerator might have 2 knock outs for gas line. At least one but maybe two.

    Nice set up. If we had a customer who wanted a dual faucet pro set up, this would be an option.
    Cheers.
     
    ikthayt likes this.
  15. ikthayt

    ikthayt Initiate (0) Nov 20, 2017 Michigan

    I'm not sure what you mean about choker vs. barrier. Here's my understanding of the "order of operations":

    Gas tank -> regulator -> gas hose to coupler -> coupler attached to keg -> beer hose from coupler to shank -> shank connected to the leg bone faucet -> beer to glass to face

    So beer hose to shank - you're saying get the basic tubing offered by KegConnection and not spend/waste my money on the PVC-free stuff? I'm not trying to be all new-age here, but want to make sure it's BPA free plastics being used.

    As for rest...thanks again for the feedback.
    • I got a few extra feet of gas line just in case, but dropped the vast majority of it. The current layout has the CO2 tank about 6-7ft away from the kegerator.
    • I'm switching up the order to do a single primary regulator outside to run a single line into the unit - then using a double secondary low pressure gauges inside the unit to the couplers. While I probably don't need two different pressures, I think I'll appreciate the ability to do so in the long run.
    • Everything is Stainless Steel
    • Switched back to the Perlick faucets
    @PortLargo Still confused on the barbs/MFL - even if I have MFL, don't I need a barb on the fitting to hold the fitting in the hose correctly? I wanted the screw-on option for sure, I just don't understand how the fittings clamp on to the hoses without some special tool. I thought those options in the builder were to get it all to connect right. I'll go back and just pick MFL - and another call to KC to make sure it has all the fittings/rings/etc. necessary to hook it all up.

    Thanks again - my Kegerator and back-bar fridge just came in, so I'll post some pics once it starts coming together...
     
  16. ikthayt

    ikthayt Initiate (0) Nov 20, 2017 Michigan

    Updated cart:
    [​IMG]
    Secondary Regulator - Dual Body: Taprite 2 Body Secondary Regulator - LP
    Outlet Nipple for Dual Body Secondary Regulator: MFL with 5/16" Barbed Swivel Nut and Washer
    Air System For Secondary Regulators: Taprite Primary Regulator with 4' Hose and Clamps (I'll have to replace this with 8' hose)

    [​IMG]
    2 Faucet Tower Commercial Kit
    Regulator and Distributors: No Regulator or Air System
    Gas Line: 8' Red Gas Hose for Wye and Dual Body Kits
    Tower Shell: 2 Faucet Tower Premium
    Shank Options: Stainless Steel Shank
    Tailpieces: Shank Connection Kit Stainless (only $4 cheaper to remove, so just kept them)
    Beer Line: Two 5' Beer Line for Kits
    Faucet 1: Perlick 630SS
    Faucet 2: Perlick 630SS
    Coupler 1: Sanke D Coupler, US Made Taprite, Grey Lever Type, SS Probe
    Coupler 2: Sanke D Coupler, US Made Taprite, Grey Lever Type, SS Probe

    [​IMG]
    Beer Hose, Clear, 3/16" ID X 7/16" OD, Sold by the foot. (30ft - can replace lines 3 times - aka, 1 year supply)

    [​IMG]
    Gas Hose, Red, 5/16 ID, 9/16 OD, Per Foot (10ft - just in case)
     
  17. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    Dual secondaries in the kegerator will certainly work, that's what I do. There may be some difficulty with mounting, you can't "drill" into sides . . . will probably require some head-scratching. If you want to go "poor man" initially you can get this part for 'bout three bucks and it will comfortably feed two kegs:
    [​IMG]
    This is as good as twin secondary regulators with the exception of single pressure only. It will be simpler, cheaper, and not a bad way to start. Just make sure it's 5/16" OD. Easy to replace with the nicer hardware if you think you need it.

    This is confusing . . . until you see it. I go all MFL, others are happy with barbs . . . it just depends. With a MFL fitting you do still have to attach to barb, but then the nut goes on the threaded fitting easily with a simple turn of the pliers. When you swap out lines you "unscrew" the nut and remove the hose. Yes, you still have to cut the hose off the barb, but you can carry it to your work bench where it's much easier and less likely of stabbing your fingers. MFLs are more parts . . . to me it's worth it. You'll need a teflon washer(and a few spares) for the metal nut to seal against the "male flare" outlet. With liquid you don't even need a hose clamp (no leaks at these low pressures), with gas you can use worms or an oetiker:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Here's a video: (If you use hot water to "expand" the line it is much easier, also visualize doing this procedure "inside" your kegerator :grimacing: when swapping out line attached to barb fittings)

    Philosophically (again): Don't be afraid of making connections. There is no such thing as a Kegerator Repairman you can call. When something goes wrong you get your tools and fix it. Building your own lines are a part of it . . . yes, the first time or two it may leak, but you'll learn. You will become a leak expert or end up selling your unit on Craigslist. Just about everyone who does this is self-taught so no need to worry. I would not even buy the 5' beer lines, high probability they will be too short and you've just wasted money. Get your 30' and experiment with your first line . . . it'll probably be in the 6 - 8' range. Same with gas line, get 10+ feet and make your own connections. You can search this Forum for "leaks" and get some good troubleshooting techniques.

    Regarding type of lines: I stick with the vinyl (Bevlux is the brand at KC) and have been pleased. At 50¢/ft that's a bargain. But @billandsuz installs this professionally so will always defer to his knowledge.

    At the risk of over-whelming, you need to start thinking about balancing your system. Here are two pretty good threads:
    https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/foaming.193492/
    https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/help-with-balancing-my-system.248243/

    Still recommend you tell no one what you are doing till it's pouring smoothly.
     
    ikthayt and billandsuz like this.
  18. ikthayt

    ikthayt Initiate (0) Nov 20, 2017 Michigan

    I honestly was going to use those 3M Command strips with some Hooks and just "hang" it on the back wall. Those things are great and work even in cold w/o damaging surface. Not sure if anyone has tried unsuccessfully already with this thought process, but was my first idea.

    Thanks - have read both a few times now. Construction isn't done and I don't even have the units at the house yet, so I'll have to just start experimenting once I get it all set up. A few days of dumping Miller Lite down the drain doesn't sound all that bad. :wink:
     
  19. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Choker is just vinyl tubing, and you do want PVC free. It is called Beverage Line. I like Bevlex 200, or Kuriyama. It is fairly generic and cheap. Regular vinyl tubing is the clear stuff you see at any hardware store with the big difference that the vinyl made for beverages is PVC free and the stuff at Lowes may or may not be. Lowes sells "Watts" brand, sometimes it is PVC free. I don't understand either.

    It is called choker for a reason.

    Example A*-
    Fully turn on the spigot outside your home and the water blasts out with force. OK.
    Now add 100' of garden hose to the spigot. Same spigot, same household pressure at the spigot but the flow rate at the end of the garden hose is greatly reduce. The hose adds resistance. It is a choker of sorts.

    Example B-
    Replace the 100' garden hose with 100' of Teflon, er PTFE, lined tubing. Same diameter.
    The pressure and flow rate is substantially greater. Less resistance. (PTFE is PFA in fact).

    * In your mind. Fully turn it on in your mind man.

    Barrier tubing is the opposite of choker. Barrier is made from poly and meant to add little resistance.

    Just about every draft system in the world uses a length of Choker to get the flow rate corrected. In a kegerator, it is really all you need to use. About 6' is a good length.

    Leave the Barrier Tubing alone. It is only needed when the kegs are distant from the faucet, and eliminating as much system resistance as possible is required.

    Makes sense?

    Cheers.

    Also, I am going to suggest you don't hang the CO2.
    1, it will fall off the wall and your regulator will break.
    2, a 5# tank of CO2 gas is a rocket ship. Or a missile. It is definitely a 5# projectile with the aid of 800 psi of compressed gas. You get the idea.
     
    #19 billandsuz, Dec 5, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
    ikthayt likes this.
  20. ikthayt

    ikthayt Initiate (0) Nov 20, 2017 Michigan

    Oh definitely, I know. I mistyped - I meant I was going to 'hang' the secondary regulators inside the kegerator w/o having to drill holes in the fridge so that things stay mildly organized. That way they aren't permanently attached and I can fiddle with them if needed but then they stay up and out of the way during every day use.

    Since I plan to have the CO2 tank outside the kegerator, I need to have the secondary regulators inside. Portlargo mentioned mounting them.

    Here's my super-crude layout of the bar setup that is being constructed. There's a countertop on top of the fridge and icemaker with a cutout for the kegerator top. It's about 10' long, so the length from corner where the CO2 will be to back of kegerator I'm estimating is about 5-6 feet depending on where there is a cutout for the gas line to come in:
    [​IMG]
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.