Help with balancing my system

Is the 45 the actual temp of the beer, or just a setting on the kegerator as you wrote? You need actual beer temp. In a short draw system you don't really need to account for the height of the faucet. Longer lines are very helpful, they slow the flow of properly balanced beer, which in turn cuts down on turbulence and gives you a better pour. I have 10' lines and can pour a completely foamless beer if I want to. The best length is probably 7-8' which gives you a good pour and isn't too slow. To conquer first glass foam you will need a tower cooler.

 

Don't try to pour the beer at 45F you will have a tough time balancing at 45f. Try to have pour temps in the 38f range. Beer will warm up in a few minutes.. And also as Doug said in a smaller home setup usually longer lines are the key to controlling the flow with properly set regulator. And determine beer temps on second pour readings with a calibrated probe type thermometer . Not air temp in the unit.
Also jealous you got the NN already. After the 26th in Nj.Hopefully my local shop can get me a 1/6 of NN this year.

 

I haven't done the calculation recently, but 5' to 6' of 3/16" line is pretty typical for 10-11psi of pressure. 14psi would require a significantly longer line. Shortening the line will increase your foaming issue. I'd be inclined to start with 8' to 10'.

??? The resistance added by a 2.5' rise in a 1000' line is identical to a 3' line. What causes you to believe otherwise?

 

I don't think at any point I said I believed the laws of physics no longer applied. You somehow read that into the message. I was suggesting that it could be ignored for this exercise to simplify things.

 

Because I am experiencing the same thing, and because my system has been balanced for years now, I can with confidence say this. These 2015 NN kegs came from the brewery extra frothy. So, you can either use the blow off valve to try to reduce the CO2 level in the keg (have to do this a few times, then sit and wait, rinse repeat) OR you can do as I do and just live with the foam the first few days until the CO2 levels your system is replacing into the keg starts to settle and lower the pressure (FYI my system pressure is set at 11 psi). The more beers you pour, the more your system will replace the keg with your system CO2 level, thus lowering the pressure that was filled at the brewery.

All that being said, 45 degrees is not what you kegerator should be set at, use 36-38 and lower your PSI down to 12, 14 is too high. I've had kegs of NN for years now, 38 degree at 10-12 psi with 5' of hose will give you what you are looking for (after you bleed off the brewery pressure).

 

[QUOTE="mikehartigan, post: 3180780, member: 132921"
??? The resistance added by a 2.5' rise in a 1000' line is identical to a 3' line. What causes you to believe otherwise?[/QUOTE]

each foot of rise adds 0.45 of psi. each foot of drop relieves 0.45 psi. usually rounded to 0.5 psi.

with a two foot rise, it can be ignored without too much worry. in fact the difference in height changes from a full keg to an empty keg, and we really can't be making such minor adjustments along the way. it's just not significant.
Cheers.

 

any changes in pressure and temperature will take a while, 24 hours, to have an effect. you can shut of the gas and pull the pressure release pin to vent gas a few times. this will help to get the proper amount of vols back. just don't go over board. and turn the gas back on at the desired pressure.
Cheers.

 

You said "In a short draw system you don't really need to account for the height of the faucet." Your qualification suggests that a short draw system behaves differently than a long draw. That's the source of my confusion.

 

Agreed. I was confused by the suggestion that things behaved differently in a short draw system.

 

So sorry for your confusion. I suppose I probably should have added something along the lines of "you will not need to account for the rise of a long draw system (even though you are using a short draw system) but you will have to account for friction loses in a long draw system (even though you are using a short draw system) as well as alternate means of cooling said long draw system (even though you are using a short draw system).

That should clear it up.

 

For the OP: there is foam . . . then there is foam. I agree with the advice given above but offer this:

Pretty much without exception you should determine the desired carb level (consult brewery), the beer temp, and then set the pressure to match. Once you have these three legs of the chair cut, measure your beer line.

You can have excessive foam on an under carbonated beer. It can be caused by either CO2 breaking out because of rapid warming (hot tower?) and/or too little resistance in serving (lines too short). You can have too little foam with proper or over carbed beer if you have too much resistance (lines too long). Difficult to measure the beer carb level, but you can test it by the "swish" test: give your beer a hard swish in your mouth, the excess of CO2 off-gassing (tingling) can be measured (with practice). This will be difficult the first time but practice makes perfect . . . try comparing to known commercial beers.

When I start carbonating a homebrew I regularly taste by using a short jumper (2'), the pour will be massive foam but the swish test will confirm the beer is under carbed. I could use an extremely long line and get near zero foam on an over carbed beer (swish would confirm). My point: excessive foam means you have a problem (temp/resistance), it does not mean you are over carbed.

You get to pick the temp, but agree with zero that it makes more sense to keep it in the upper 30s. Beer warms pretty quickly, I like mid 40s for drinking and my 39° beer hits that almost as quickly as I can walk the glass over to the recliner (the geek in me has measured with a Thermapen). But you get the only and final vote here. You must have a decent thermo (under 20 bucks).

I find the beer line calculators under estimate the length required. Other post here just the opposite, so take that with a grain of salt. But I run 8 footer's on my 12psi beer and 12 footers on my 16psi to get a good pour (and yes they pour fast). Pretty sure my tape measure is accurate, I'm measuring press with two different gauges, and can't image the physics are different at my house . . . but that's my results. Suspect my brand of beer line puts up less resistance than how the calcs are programmed. My point: it is what it is . . . you may end up with lots more (or less) line than computed.

There seems a tendency to want to buy a 5 or 6 foot line for a draft system and use that for life. I say make one trip to the beer-line store and get 20' . . . overall it will minimize frustration and you will use the excess in the future. If you ever change styles (carb levels) you will need different lengths. Just like having different clubs in your golf bag, there's nothing wrong with having a 6 and 8 and 10 footer laying around. Patience is virtue . . . it can easily take a week+ to accomplish the balancing act (fourth leg of the chair).

 

3.0 psi / foot for 3/16" vinyl is a common assumption but wrong. assume around 2.8 psi resistance per foot. prior to the 90's the 3.0 figure was valid. not anymore. new material is much more slick. and better in other ways too. literature is stuck with 3.0, but industry will quickly tell you 2.8 is more realistic. material other than vinyl is way less these days btw.

also, i like your three legged stool analogy.
Cheers.

 

Instant read flag is beer above 38 F. Most information you get even from breweries themselves is just wrong.

Pouring beer is simple when you understand a few simple rules.
1) look at how it pours. A perfect pour is a pour of liquid from the tap that comes out fully from the faucet, is perfectly clear (their are differences in appearance between froathy and yeasty). And generally pours a full pint in 8-10 seconds. When I trouble shoot an issue I watch how the beer pours because it tells me what is happening. Constant fast foam is over pressurized or to hot, initial foam followed by clear beer and another pocket of foam followed by more clear beer means the keg is either slightly under pressurized or the beer itself is over carbonated or it is a tad to warm.

2) check the beer inside the beerline. You need clear tubing for this but honestly being able to see the beer is a necessity when diagnosing an issue. The reason you check the beer line is to watch for gas seperating from the beer. You will notice on an unbalanced system gas will form empty pockets or pockets of foam at high points like at the faucet and usually another high spot right at the tapping device. The amount of gas in these pockets tells you the severity on the imbalance.

So once you have checked that realize this
A) The colder a liquid is the more gas it can hold on to ( foam is the gas being released)
B) Liquid can't hold gas when it is frozen ( causes severe foam)
C) 3/16 restriction is 2.2 pounds ( personally I think its just 2psi restriction as most towers add 1 pound of restriction from height and you need about a pound to push the beer out). So it works out to be 5ft of 3/16 for most short draw systems. A foot of height from keg to tap adds maybe .3 to .5 psi restriction.
D) Never really go above 12psi of carbonation. At around 14 psi the last 30% of a keg will be pure foam. You can have greater than 12psi pressure but not with straight co2
E) Draft Beer should NEVER be above 40 F...EVER! It will foam period, end of story.

 

This has not been my experience. I routinely keep two kegs at the 16-17 psi mark with no problems. How does the beer know when the headspace is greater than 70%?

For the OP: Glad you are balanced. If you decide to get some highly carbed beers (like Belgians) it can be accommodated with simple re-balancing. Here's a brew from my keezer poured at 17 psi in under 8 seconds (good till the last pour):

 

Everytime you post that shot it makes me thirsty.

 

Yup, there you go. Enjoy the fresh NN!

 

How does the keg know anything? The beer however draws from the bottom of the keg, the gas fills from the top. So as you draw closer to the head space you will see beer foam up more at the end of a keg rather than the beginning because the beer is interacting with the gas at the surface and diffuses downward.

Hey if what you have works for you more power to you. I have worked on over 500 accounts, and without a doubt every account that ever had a straight co2 blend on a system that needed more than 14psi had foaming issues. Maybe belgiums are different as 99% of commercial beers on tap are generally not belgium but I still doubt their is much difference. I'll reserve judgement for when I see it.