Detecting differences above 60 IBUs

I'll throw out there I bet the difference has to be greater. 60 and 70? Maybe not. 60 and 102 (looking at you, Lagunitas)... well, maybe.

 

I'm no expert but, I notice a pretty substantial difference between, say, Flower Power and Hop Stoopid or Resin in terms of bitterness alone.

 

I'll use @lambpasty as support for my claim.

 

I think that the IBU scale is ridiculous. In no way does the level of IBU's in a beer equal perceived bitterness. There are so many other factors to consider when trying to determine how bitter a beer will be. Amount of malt used, variety of hops, freshness of the beer, etc....

 

I think you're right. When this post popped up I read the referenced article, then did some Googling on the writer and IBU (did you know there is an International Biathlon Union?). The most scientific explanation I found is the following-
Wh × AA% × Uaa ⁄ ( Vw × 1.34 ), where

• Wh refers to the weight of the hops used, in ounces
• AA% refers to the alpha acid percentage, which is influenced by many factors, including cultivation method, species, and time of year — hops are often sold labeled with this percentage
• Uaa is the percentage of alpha acid that is actually used during the boiling process
• Vw means the volume of the wort, in gallons
• 1.34 is a constant factor that adjusts the measurement to account for the use of U.S. customary unit

But none of that accounts for what silverking brings up. In the end its highly subjective. I still like to see IBUs listed on labeling though (mo info mo better).

 

The IBU scale is just fine if one uses it as an indicator of how much of certain chemicals are in the beer. However, as you say there is no necessary relationship between the number of IBUs and the perceived bitterness.

 

While there may be individual differences between two different people's sensitivity to bittering agents, it is not really subjective since the difference between those two people will be physiological and not psychological. And for any given indivdual if one uses the proper techniques it is possible to establish a relationship between IBUs and perceived bitterness. The problem is, as you and @silverking note, in something like beer, there are too many other things going on to suggest that IBUs measure bitterness.

 

I'd guess, in the absense of data, that 60 isn't the correct number. (Also note his weasel "most people.") However there is an upper limit to how much increasing IBUs for the same liquid will be perceived and typically the closer we get to that maximum the more of the bittering chemicals it takes for someone to notice that there is a difference. So starting with only a few IBUs, only a few more will produce a detectable difference. The closer we get to the upper limit the more IBUs we have to add for people to be able to detect a difference.

So the claim of an upper limit is not ridiculous. But it is hard to establish what that "upper limit" is for a particular liquid, a particular person, and a particular bittering agent.

So until he presents us with data the best bet is to assume there is an upper limit beyond which adding more IBUs doesn't affect perceived bitterness but there's a good chance that number is closer to 90 or so than 60.

Edit: In any event it won't be above 100 since Homebrewers and others assure us that after adding enough hops to get up to about 100 the liquid no longer has the capacity to "dissolve" anymore of the bittering agents from the hops. :-)

 

Dude....stop reading my mind!!

This is basically exactly the point. IBU's are a useless scale.

 

I would say the writer's statement is mostly true with regard to most human beings. I would also say that, as a beer drinker's palate develops, they are able to detect very subtle differences in the bitterness and other favors in a beer, particularly an IPA or other highly hopped beer.

Trying to find much truth in a beer article intended for the general public seems kind of like a waste of time for those in the BA community, considering the resources at hand.

 

The IBU scale is best thought of like the highest possible bitterness that could be achieved with the hops that went into the beer. It measures the presence of chemical compounds. What it doesn't account for is the effect of all the other ingredients which are added to balance that bitterness. You can have an 80 IBU beer that is less bitter than a 40 IBU example because of this.

Net - net, the scale is irrelevant and maybe a predictor of bitterness, but it really doesn't give you much.

 

I tend to think of IBUs as similar to calories: something can contain x amount, but taste, mouthfeel, and nuances are infinite even if two items (beers, a restaurant entree, etc.) have similar numbers. That's a very simplified take, but it makes sense for me.

 

Perhaps we are throwing out the baby with the bathwater with some of these comments. Useless--prob not. As a frame of reference for bitter vs non bitter--it has some value. As an exact science of every persons perceptions of just how bitter it is, well that is much more subjective and affected by other ingredients as well.

Somewhat like measuring "hotness" in peppers after they have been put in food. What is considered death to some is just hot to others.

 

I'm sure no method is perfect, but I wonder if combining IBUs and FG could be helpful in order to determine perceived bitterness. For example:

Beer 1: 60 IBUs/1.010 FG= Perceived Bitterness of 6 (60/10)
Beer 2: 60 IBUs/1.020 FG= Perceived Bitterness of 3 (60/20)

Accordingly to this formula, Beer 1 would be twice as bitter as Beer 2. This makes sense to me theoretically, considering Beer 1's FG indicates a dry IPA or IIPA, and Beer 2's FG indicates a Porter or Stout.

 

This. It is useful but more so for a brewer rather than a consumer. In my opinion consumers wanting more bitter IPAs led to the widespread use of IBUs on labels almost as a pissing contest to see who can brew the most bitter beer. But IBUs aren't useful to a consumer without knowing all the other ingredients, mash temps, etc. It would be the same as looking at a food label's sodium content to find out how salty a food will taste.

 

This has been talked about by Gordon Strong, I don't think you can make a scale out of it, but it is useful to think about how much sugar remains. Balance in the finish depends on the beer's IBUs, OG, FG. Zum Uerige albier is very bitter at 45-50 IBUs, while a big British Barleywine will be balanced or even sweet at 50 IBU. Some fruity esters will lower the perceived bitterness, as the brain will say sweet.

IBUs are useful when designing a beer, ask a brewer what he does when formulating a beer.

There are other sources of bitterness in a beer besides the Iso-AA. There are oxidized Beta acids, bitterness for roast malts if used, and hop polyphenols. The bitterness will also be accentuated by high sulfate levels.