Old IPAs - What to do about this problem?

I don't believe most beer goes back, if your the final retail link you own it. The Distributors don't want it back, most certainly the brewery twice removed doesn't want it either. It stays until it sells or goes into the cheap shit bin to move it.

 

The market is becoming slightly saturated with some of the more available beers, I agree. It does get hard sometimes, having to check dates to ensure freshness..

 

This thread is stale.

By the way--in reference to all the diatribe on the barman and keg freshness--how about a sample and decide for yourself?

 

Yes, they know that certain special or periodic releases of beer will be in high demand and this way they can control the quantities given to each individual. In other words, no hoarding.

 

It wasn't even the original thread that was started today. I started a thread about the economics of beer. Supply and demand, pricing, etc. It started going on a tangent about IPAs not being fresh and the next thing you know it was merged with an old thread. Hopefully Todd will close it.

 

I think it would be a good idea for @RobH to read the posts in this thread.

Cheers!

 

Your thread has been merged with an older thread. This is little doubt that it will get closed given that condition.

Cheers!

 

Thanks Jack. I've read some of the posts in this thread. I've chimed in on other threads relating to old beer, IPAs over a month old, etc.

As I stated in another thread, and has been stated in this thread by others, there is more beer in the supply chain than there are people buying it at retail to get it off store shelves within 90 days of bottling. The flow from bottling through distribution, to the retail shelf, and through the cash register in the customer's hands, isn't that fast. So there's arguably a glut of beer on the market.

And then there are instances (too many, frankly) of distributors delivering old beer to retailers. And then there are instances of perfectly good beer (5 week old IPA) being rejected by consumers as "too old." So those poor IPAs never stood a chance in life.

Being in the industry, it's incredibly frustrating to read threads like this. Perhaps these IPAs, with their fragile hop notes, shouldn't even be bottled. They should only be available at the brewery, direct from the bright tank... 'cause that's how the brewers intend for them to taste.

And then there's the opposite problem; limited release beers with demand way higher than supply, and consumers getting pissed at how stores manage the sale of those items. @ELS is right, Total Wine manages these high demand/low supply beers by keeping them under control behind the customer service desk. Otherwise, Joe Dick will come in and buy it ALL for himself. This process is followed based on consumer discussion here on BA from a couple of years ago after the Founders CBS fiasco.

I'm reminded of the Bros.' recent editorial in BeerAdvocate magazine, in which they lamented how the fun is getting sucked out of craft beer in this culture of beer and social media devices rather than socializing with people in the room with beer. And maybe the Budweiser was onto something in their Super Bowl ad in which they made fun of mustachioed lads "fussing" over their beer.

Maybe I'm having Monday morning syndrome after a great weekend. Maybe I just need a beer.

 

Rob,

I am uncertain whether you picked up on it but @ELS started a separate thread which very recently got merged within this older thread entitled Old IPAs. Since there was a fair amount of discussion about older beer on the shelves of Total Wine & More stores (I specifically mentioned a beer that was over 1 year old) I thought you might be interested in reading these recent posts.

"One of the beers was a German import; that beer was likely over a year old since it was past its best by date."

Cheers!

Jack

 

Thanks for clarifying, Jack.

Indeed, legitimately out of code beer on shelves is a real issue in the retail space. TW has the issue as does virtually every beer store at one time or another. Sometimes it's delivered old and is merchandised on the shelves by the distributor. Sometimes it grows old on the shelf.

In the case of TW, customers are never stuck with old beer. It can be returned for exchange or credit (depending on state law). It's unfortunate that it happens, but when it does it's certainly not the customer's fault, so TW honors their money spent by correcting the issue with the customer.

 

To add to that note, it's also frustrating when beer geeks make freshness statements in direct opposition made by the brewers. Shockingly to some, brewers don't always prefer their beers right out of the bright tank. For example John Kimmich of The Alchemist has said he prefers Heady Topper after a couple months. @sierranevadabill has stated he prefers SN Pale Ale 1-2 weeks after bottling because the super-fresh hops leave an overly-grassy vegetative flavor that mellows in about a week into the Pale Ale we all know and love.

Furthermore, it's been said several times in this thread and other discussions that insuring freshness takes more than a bottling date and/or a can, but so many beer advocates can't shake those beliefs. Breweries that have invested in the best [expensive] bottling/canning systems and QA/QC (e.g. Victory, Sierra Nevada, Bells, Sam Adams, Stone, Goose Island and more) have their beer freshness judged by beer geeks according to the same criteria as a brewer who does not make those investments. If people are going to turn up their nose at beer because of an arbitrary date then what incentive do brewers have to invest in their bottling, canning or QA/QC methods to make sure the best beer is on the market?

Basically, sometimes the fresh-obsessive beer geeks are doing a disservice to the breweries they say they support. It's a shame because these people's hearts are in the right place, but some are getting a little carried away.

(edited to fix the quote)

 

I do my best to look at the bottling or drink by date but sometimes that does not work as there may not be one on the bottle or can. In that case if I get an old IPA I might use it as a marinade for cooking or donate it to the beer league hockey post game community cooler where someone will have an opportunity to enjoy it.

 

Another issue that I haven't seen brought up in this thread, but speaks to Yemenmocha's point about smaller local breweries, is that bottling line qualities have a huge disparity. One reason Sierra Nevada's hoppy offerings stand up so well is that both their bottling line and crown quality is just extremely good. When smaller breweries package their beer there is a massive disparity in terms of time. Larger breweries measure bottling times in miliseconds versus even a mid size brewery which may measure their crowning time in actual seconds, or even minutes if they are hand bottling bombers.

I honestly think the best solution is to either do something like Tree House or the Alchemist and keep your good beer extremely local, and then produce according to demand, because honestly a large part of those breweries' appeal has to be in the fact that people are only drinking those beers extremely fresh, right off the truck. Julius' rating, for instance, would likely tumble if Tree House started semi-mass producing it and then canning it on a second rate packaging line.

 

So... if I go to the bakery and all they have is bread from yesterday, I am doing them a disservice if I go to the other bakery that has bread made today? I'm sure that day old bread is almost as good, right?

If I see milk on grocery shelf with freshness expiration in two weeks, and instead pick one with freshness expiration in three weeks, I am doing the store a disservice?

If I am at the movie theater and there is popcorn in container made two hours ago, and there is fresh just coming out now, if I don't take the two hour old I am doing the theater a disservice?

My point is if breweries make too much beer to sell quickly enough, it isn't up to the consumer to settle for a less fresh product. In fact, if we settle, we are doing ourselves a disservice, because the problem won't be fixed, there won't be a penalty to brewer, distributor, and retailer for not having as fresh beer as we want to drink. Brewers are no different than any other business that has to be aware of its customers' freshness desires. That's on them, not us.

 

You excluded quoting 80% of my post that gave the reason why the some beer geeks freshness obsession can be misguided. Here it is for you again.

Not all breweries are equal when it comes freshness. A 2-month old beer from Sierra Nevada could be more fresh than a 2-week old bottle from a small-time brewer who can't afford good equipment or uses a mobile canning service. It's not "settling for a less fresh product" because the product can still be plenty fresh; it's about fair treatment of product from brewers who do invest their time and money into getting fresh beer to market.

Edit: None of your straw man arguments are analogous to beer, because there are empirically quantifiable differences in freshness between beers from different breweries. Bottling dates are good information, but they do not capture the full technical engineering and science involved in packaging fresh beer.

 

The answer is simple. Check the date, if it's not fresh enough to suit you, or has no date, don't buy it. Then tell the store and the brewery. They need customer feedback (complaints, suggestions, requests) and proof (declining sales).

 

I left it out because your point is moot.

Yes it is "settling", because when I see a product isn't as fresh as I want, it is simple enough to get one that is as fresh as I want. Equally as easy as choosing fresher bread and milk, which I am guessing you don't have the same problem with?

And I am pretty tired of people saying that my, and others', "misguided" desires for freshness should be compromised because their opinion about a product's freshness is somehow equally as important, and just as valid, as my own opinion about what I want to drink. When I need someone to tell me what I ought to enjoy I will certainly ask for that assistance.

Perhaps brewers that can't compete with fresher product ought not try to do so. Whether they can or can't, it isn't up to me to make it easier for them to sell beer I consider not as fresh as the beer I want to purchase. It is up to them to decide if they can compete with fresher alternatives that I, and others, can get easily.

 

Fine I'll cut out your posts.

There's quantifiable science behind making a fresh product. Brewers can measure oxidation rates, packaged oxygen, oxygen ingress, staling reactions over time at different temperatures, etc. and the good ones who really care about quality control do that. Your own opinion is just that... an opinion. Thankfully beer freshness is not just based on opinions. Or as Neil deGrasse Tyson would say, "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."

 

That's great. I like really fresh IPA. I brew my own, and I like that fullest aroma, and every bit of the quick to disappear complexity of hop goodness. I have had about 3,000 different beers in the last 6 years, and I think by this point I may have a handle on what I enjoy. And what is fresh enough, and isn't. I have tasted many different hops at every stage of their brew journey from fermenter to mouth, and I doubt there is scientific studies that prove that hop aroma compounds don't degrade rapidly, but I am always willing to learn. Perhaps there are methods of slowing that down some, and my guess is that is what you are referring to.

There certainly is plenty of testing on the subject though. Testing aside, the best way to avoid the degradation completely is to get super fresh beer. Too bad for these breweries that have to ship (vibration) and store (temperature) because oxygen isn't the only enemy. Time is the main enemy, and I will always get the one that traveled least, isn't stored at room temperature, and is either served into growler from brite, or is under two weeks in bottle with a short trip to get to me, or as close as I can get it.

 

@cavedave For record, I know you've been around these forums for while and that you are very knowledgeable. I know you are not a Johnny-come-lately who hears something and parrots it to sound smart. I respect you and know you know your beer. Which is why your opposition to the proven science behind beer packaging surprises me.

I like when people reference texts, because I read them....shocking I know... And FWIW, near the end of your article it says this (bold by me):

Many brewers here have stated on these forums that in addition to elimination of oxygen, to the point you made, temperature is also key because it slows down the chemical reaction of staling/oxidation. All brewers struggle to varying degrees with distributors/retailers to maintain cold storage, but, to my point, brewers are not all created equally when it comes to packaging quality.