Averagely Perfect ESB - Poll #34 - Specific Concentrations for Chloride and Sulfates

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, May 2, 2017.

?

Select one concentration for Chloride and one concentration for Sulfates.

Poll closed May 4, 2017.
  1. Chloride 30 ppm

    4.8%
  2. Chloride 40 ppm

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Chloride 50 ppm

    61.9%
  4. Chloride 60 ppm

    14.3%
  5. Chloride 70 ppm //

    19.0%
  6. // Sulfates 80 ppm

    9.5%
  7. Sulfates 90 ppm

    4.8%
  8. Sulfates 100 ppm

    33.3%
  9. Sulfates 110 ppm

    14.3%
  10. Sulfates 120 ppm

    38.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    -> Poll #33 <- determined that the general water profile will be Low in Chloride (less than 75 ppm) and Medium in Sulfates (75 -125 ppm). This poll will determine specific concentrations (in ppm) for Chloride and for Sulfates. When they have been determined, the concentration of Calcium will naturally follow, since the Chloride and Sulfates will come from additions of Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) and Calcium Sulfate (CaSO4), respectively. (A possible sidetrip here would result if there is a clamoring to consider adding some sodium via NaCl. In that case, some of the Chloride would be coming from NaCl.)

    In this poll you should click on two checkboxes... one choice for Chloride and one choice for Sulfates. Do not click on more than one choice for each ion. If you want an amount that's not listed for a particular ion, write it in, and don't click a checkbox for that particular ion. Write-ins need to be clear... if I can't understand what you're saying, or if it's not clear that it's a write-in, it will get ignored. Write-ins must be consistent with the previous poll decisions, i.e. Chloride votes must be for less than 75 ppm and Sulfate votes must be between 75 and 125 ppm.

    Feel free to include comments about other aspects of the water you believe should be polled.

    This poll will be open for 48 hours.

    If you have issues with or suggestions for methodologies used in this project, please send them via beermail. Let's keep the threads themselves on topic to the question at hand and not about how you would have asked the question differently. Lobbying for votes and intelligent discussion of each choice's relative merits is encouraged.

    The Averagely Perfect ESB Recipe so far...

    Batch Size: 5 Gallons (into the fermenter)
    Target ABV: 5.4%
    OG: 1.053
    FG: 1.012 (77.4% Apparent Attenuation)
    70% Mash Efficiency assumed
    IBUs: 40 (modified Tinseth)
    Overall Water Profile: Low Chloride, Medium Sulfates

    Grain Bill:
    --- 8.94 lbs Maris Otter
    --- 0.50 lbs English Crystal Malt (~55L)
    --- 0.20 lbs English Dark Crystal (~80L)
    --- 0.40 lbs Invert Sugar #2

    Hops:
    60 Minutes: 0.34 ounces Target (11.1% AA), 0.34 ounces Northdown (8.5% AA)
    10 Minutes: 0.5 ounces EKG (5.5% AA), 0.5 ounces Northdown (8.5% AA)
    Flameout/Whirlpool/Hopstand: 0.5 ounces EKG (5.5% AA), 0.5 ounces Target (11.1% AA)


    Mash Temperature (recommended): 154F
    Mash Length (recommended): 60 minutes
    Yeast Strain: Wyeast 1469
    Fermentation Temperature: 68F
     
  2. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Sticking close to the BrunWater suggestions I made previously.
     
  3. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,958) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah

    I went with 50 and 100 (2 to 1 sulfates to chloride), seems reasonable, besides I doubt there is much difference in the middle choices unless someone went for the low end of chloride and the high end of sulfates (4 to 1).

    But, I am definitely not a water expert and have not brewed enough similar recipes with different water additions.
     
    crcostel likes this.
  4. crcostel

    crcostel Initiate (0) Feb 26, 2006 Illinois

    Exactly my thoughts
     
  5. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Alrighty. Outlier removed and the rest averaged, that's...

    Cl 55 ppm
    SO4 107 ppm

    ...which sets Calcium (Ca) at 76 ppm.

    Tentatively, I will plan to post the final recipe tomorrow. In the meantime, if there are any major regrets, speak up now. If there's enough support for a particular change/re-do, I'll poll it. Otherwise, the recipe goes final tomorrow.
     
  6. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    No remorse. I won't be first out of the gate to brew this one because I have at least 3 batches I need to make first, but I do look forward to seeing how we did on this, a few months down the line. Thanks @VikeMan for indulging us in another AP crowd-sourced recipe.
     
  7. machalel

    machalel Initiate (0) Jan 19, 2012 Australia

    I'm due to brew (hey that rhymes) - so I will probably do this one!

    No real regrets from me
     
    FeDUBBELFIST likes this.
  8. Granitebeard

    Granitebeard Zealot (549) Aug 24, 2016 Maine

    No sure how I will make it work and the odd amounts of bittering hops will irk me, but I will try brewing it once as written, then once how I do things( even amounts of hops as I can buy them and no water adjustment) and see which I prefer.
     
  9. crcostel

    crcostel Initiate (0) Feb 26, 2006 Illinois

    Luckily for me, I do my hops in grams instead of ounces. .34oz is basically 10g. Unluckily for me, I have to scale the recipe down to my 2gal system.

    As far as the recipe, its not what I would have done on my own, but no regrets. I'm probably going to get a Mocktoberfest going so it can lager until Sept first.
     
  10. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    If you don't have a scale that you trust, trust your eyeballs. If you get 1 oz packs, you only need to be able to visually separate into 1/3 oz or 1/2 oz. If you buy a 1 oz pack, you know what 1 oz looks like. If you need to scale from a 6 gallon recipe to a 2 gallon recipe, divide your visual estimate by three. If you feel that you will ruin your beer with this method, you can count the hop pellets (or flowers) and dole out proportionally, and then eyeball the remaining dust proportionally, too. RDWHAHB.
     
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  11. crcostel

    crcostel Initiate (0) Feb 26, 2006 Illinois

    Not really worried about ruining it - just adjustong quantities to 40% of the original. Its harder on the specialty grains than anything else.
     
  12. Supergenious

    Supergenious Maven (1,273) May 9, 2011 Michigan

    It's ok to round off quantities of grains and hops. It won't be the end of the world. :wink:
     
  13. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes, you cab even count kernels of grain and add them the mash proportionally. All that extra effort to make 2 gallons makes it taste that much better! Or you could pull out some measuring cups and figure out how many cups are in a lb of grain, then scale.
     
  14. crcostel

    crcostel Initiate (0) Feb 26, 2006 Illinois

    Cute.

    I was more talking about the 0.2lb of Dark Crystal.
     
  15. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    OK. The grain counting comment was maybe snarky, but at the same time, it's not far-fetched. Homebrewing.org will sell you grain weighed out to the tenth of a pound. Probably other retailers will too. Get 0.1 pound. Now when you scale to your smaller recipe size, even grain counting could be done in a few minutes. Measuring cups, teaspoons, counting grains, whatever it takes. I really did brew for quite a long time buying one oz packs of hop pellets, splitting the hops by counting all the whole pellets and distributing them proportionally among the different additions, and then eyeballing the broken pellets and hop dust and doing the same. To this day, I don't really trust my digital kitchen balance in the grams to ounce range and will double check weighed out hops by eyeball. "Does that really look like one quarter of the hop pack?"

    This is not rocket science. History tells us that Hobbits used to brew beer before digital scales and triple beam balances were invented. :wink:
     
  16. Granitebeard

    Granitebeard Zealot (549) Aug 24, 2016 Maine

    So how does one get away with making this selected water profile without having to buy a full package of what ever is needed to make it?
     
  17. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Final recipe posted -> HERE <-
     
  18. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Hmmm. Borrow about 3.25 grams of CaCl2 and 5.45 grams of CaSO4 from another local homebrewer?
     
  19. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    And if said friend doesn't have a reliable balance, try 1 tsp CaCl2 and 1.5 (scant) tsp gypsum and call it good enough. (reference: https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/). This assumes the homebrewer is using RO water. Those using municipal water or well water, with knowledge of chemistry, will probably know how to make the adjustment. Brewers who do not know the chemistry of the their water should probably just ignore the water chem or adopt whatever adjustments have led to good bitter beer in the past.
     
    crcostel likes this.
  20. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Savant (1,110) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    BA4LYFE Society

    I was just about to ask how to make invert sugar #2 and then, boom, saw the link right in the recipe. Awesome. Thanks a lot!

    I would like to know (and I've probably asked this before), do you guys add your CaCl2/CaSO4 additions all to your strike water? Or do you split them 50/50 between strike and then sparge water?

    Though I brewed the Averagely Perfect NEIPA, this was the first Averagely Perfect process I witnessed from the beginning. It looks like a lot of work. Thanks a lot for organizing it @VikeMan !
     
    minderbender likes this.
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