2015 BJCP Style Guidelines Released

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by dmtaylor, May 6, 2015.

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  1. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (209) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Released last night.

    http://www.bjcp.org/stylecenter.php

    (Disclaimer: I am a Certified BJCP judge but I had nothing to do with the release, just sharing the information. Comments and inquiries might be best served through the Facebook page, maybe. I assume no personal responsibility for any of the discussions that might develop in the thread below. I reserve the right to point out that Imperial Black IPA is neither shipped to India nor to Russia, nor is it pale in color, and in some cases might not be brewed using an ale yeast.)
     
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  2. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (241) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    huh...all those specialty IPAs, but no wheat IPA category?
     
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  3. LuskusDelph

    LuskusDelph Aspirant (246) May 1, 2008 New Jersey

    LOL. Don't give them any ideas. :grimacing:
     
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  4. ncaudle

    ncaudle Defender (617) May 28, 2010 Virginia

    25B - Saison
    "Brettanomyces is not typical for this style; Saisons with Brett should be entered in the American Wild Ale category."
    yet at least 2-3 of the commercial examples given have brett in them...
     
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  5. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,255) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Premium

    HA! Don't get me started... I wrote an entire rant on that when the drafts came out and hit Gordon Strong and the AHA with it on Twitter multiple times. The updates to the guidelines were supposed to put the BJCP more on track with the current trends in beer, and the current trend in beer for Farmhouse/Saison is BRETT! And then they took it from the Belgian Ale category and stuck it in the Belgian Strongs?
     
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  6. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Zealot (521) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois

    Sweet. Downloaded.
    Ergh. Could you get your Acrobat wiz to link the TOC to the corresponding pages the styles are actually described in, or do I have to do it myself? Nothing like a fat pdf that can't be utilized.
     
  7. Mag00n

    Mag00n Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2008 New York

    bah
     
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  8. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (241) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    Justin...my guess is these weren't always pleasant back & forths regarding where to draw lines among those that pulled this together. I see where they were going with the American Wild Ales category, but agree that saisons have been moving towards a more brett forward line-up. Still would think you would need a saison category that doesn't identify itself with brett, but rather the more 'traditional' saison (like du pont). Definitely disagree with the move of saison to strong Belgian though...
     
  9. ncaudle

    ncaudle Defender (617) May 28, 2010 Virginia

    I can see having a "clean" and a "brett" sub-category of Saison.
    why is DuPont considered traditional? yes, it is the most well known and longest lasting saison brewery (and by all accounts, veeery different from the supposed origins of saison). most historical evidence shows saisons were pretty much just very young lambic
     
  10. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,484) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    How so? And can you point to the evidence?
     
  11. ncaudle

    ncaudle Defender (617) May 28, 2010 Virginia

    Phil Markowskis Farmhouse Ales is a good start
     
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  12. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (241) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    that is why I put traditional in quotes...cause it is the more contemporary (post WWII) version of traditional that i'm talking about.
     
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  13. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    At least they ditched the "Munich-style" and "Franconian-style" Kellerbier designations in favor of "Pale" and "Amber." I guess they had to do something to appease all the competition folks. Still, judging Kellerbier based on 4 oz samples is more than a little absurd. Can't *wait* to see all the amped up versions that will be appearing soon as brewers vie for the judges' attention. :rolling_eyes:
     
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  14. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (241) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I have had a gripe with the California Common guidelines for years. Happy to see that it no longer has to be an exact clone of Anchor Steam.
     
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  15. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Disciple (388) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    So a 5% pale Saison is in the Belgian Strong Ale category with 9% dark ales? :astonished:
     
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  16. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,484) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    No. BDSA is in the new Trappist category.
     
  17. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Disciple (388) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    So a 5% pale Saison is in the same category as a 9% golden strong ale? :astonished:
     
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  18. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,255) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Premium

    @telejunkie and @ncaudle Du Pont has Brett in it according to Farmhouse Ales. Their house yeast is a blend of 4 strains, the Sacc appears to be related to Red Wine yeast, and at least 1 Brett strain is in the mix. Another BA posted this before in the original thread about the drafts, but I will reference it here as well: my defense of Brett in Saison.
     
  19. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,397) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    Reading through the contributors and reviewers there are some names that were a surprise.

    Ron Pattinson. Glad to see he had opportunity to participate.

    Ant Hayes. He has passed on, but he had input on British styles before his passing.
     
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  20. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,133) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Can someone who knows someone within the BJCP ask them why they're using Kaiserdom Rauchbier as a commercial example when it's no longer available?
     
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  21. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,133) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Evan Rail too -- isn't Ron's participation sort of like defecting to the other side? :wink:
     
  22. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,813) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    Jeff,

    I am glad that Ron decided to participate. I had a conversation with him after the Gordon Strong presentation on the draft BJCP style guidelines (NHC 2014). I asked him: are you going to send comments about the draft style guidelines? He responded: they don't want to hear my comments. I finished up with: you really should participate and send comments.

    Cheers!
     
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  23. patto1ro

    patto1ro Zealot (517) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands

    Had that Gordon Strong 'round my house. Nice bloke.

    I was asked for comments and I gave them. Being an arse and refusing to help wouldn't have made the guidelines any better.

    Huge improvement in the Czech styles. I like to think I had some influence there.

    I stopped thinking of the BJCP as the Dark Side long ago. Come to think of it, I don't think of anyone as the Dark Side anymore. Not even Watney.
     
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  24. patto1ro

    patto1ro Zealot (517) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands

    I spoke to Gordon later at the NHC. He asked for my comments and I gave them.
     
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  25. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,813) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    I am glad that you did!

    Cheers!
     
  26. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,274) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    So are tests being amended to reflect these changes from here on out?
     
  27. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (241) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    interesting...I'm not a big saison fan, so haven't really been following all this news. So is the Brett in DuPont similar to like Brett in wine. It's there, but just not apparent...or is it actually a part of the yeast profile? I just never heard of DuPont strain as having Brett...but the two-stage fermentation has always led me to think there was like two-strains...I always figured it was a wine yeast though.
     
  28. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (209) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    BJCP says the tests will not change until November.
     
  29. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,255) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Premium

    It seems to be like Brett in wine, it is there but it doesn't show off like it does in Geueze or Orval.
     
  30. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,768) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    Pale Commonwealth Beer feels like a forced, but what do I know?
     
  31. sergeantstogie

    sergeantstogie Initiate (0) Nov 16, 2010 Washington

    The standard should be "could I drink 5 or 6 liters of this?"
     
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  32. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,133) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Saw that and felt yours and Evan's influence all over it.
     
  33. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,484) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I have that book, so I quickly re-read the historical Saison parts last night. I'm not getting the connection with lambic, other than mixed fermentations, resulting in eventual souring. But that would be true of virtually every beer of the time, I would guess. What in particular led you to say that most historical evidence shows saisons were pretty much just very young lambic? I may well have missed something.

    One thing I (re)noticed about Farmhouse Ales was a lack of much citing of original sources. When you said historical evidence, I was hoping there might be something solid. Is there another source of historic saison information that you know of?
     
  34. ncaudle

    ncaudle Defender (617) May 28, 2010 Virginia

    that's the only book I'm really aware of concerning saisons/farmhouse ales and most seem to consider it the definitive repository of historical info on them. I'll have to grab my copy when I get home tonight but I know there is a part in it where Phil (or the co-author) said those early saisons were pretty much just young lambics.
     
  35. sergeantstogie

    sergeantstogie Initiate (0) Nov 16, 2010 Washington

    Exactly. I don'tunderstand the love of this book.
     
    #35 sergeantstogie, May 7, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2015
  36. DrewBeechum

    DrewBeechum Meyvn (1,289) Mar 15, 2003 California
    Premium

    Randy Mosher and I both did a bit of digging into the history of Saison a few years back trying to discover something more concrete. The only mention he was able to dig up was from an 1851 book on belgian brewing that said a beer brewed "en saison" was usually double strength and was only applied to a wheat/oat beer of low gravity from around Liege. Nothing in the other 18th century reference. DeClerck - the guy you'd think would be mentioning them since he literally wrote the book - doesn't mention them at all.

    In truth, all the lovely tales we know of Saison are likely just that - tales promulgated through the organ of Michael Jackson from romantic stories told by Belgian brewers. Was there farmhouse brewing? Sure, but it wasn't, near as I can tell, called Saison. (None of this is terribly surprising since MJ was obsessed with categorizing and quantifying even in face of local treatment of beers.)

    As for Brett in Saison and the BJCP guidelines, my thoughts are these: the BJCP probably separated the brett categorization to avoid heavy Brett beers in the middle of a flight. I'd have been fine if they put in a stipulation that any Brett is to be a subtle addition and not the overriding characteristic. Also, I tend to think modern brewers usually use Brett as a crutch, producing a funky beer that overdoes it when compared to Dupont or even Fantome. I've had way, way too many "Brett Saisons" that are sweet and fail to capture the magical qualities of a Saison and substitute the farm character for saison character. Had a few that do it right, to my way of thinking, but those are mystical magical unicorns.
     
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  37. ncaudle

    ncaudle Defender (617) May 28, 2010 Virginia

    are there other books out there that deal with these beers? I'd love to check them out
     
  38. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Disciple (388) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

  39. DrewBeechum

    DrewBeechum Meyvn (1,289) Mar 15, 2003 California
    Premium

    I remember reading that- don't remember anything specific about it other than the same stories. Should see if I still have it on the shelf.
     
  40. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (735) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    I'm sure we'll all get used to the new guidelines if we are entering homebrews in competitions...however fucked up they may seem at the present...it's only beer : )
     
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