2x 2.5 gallon mash/boil to create 5 gallon batch?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by CooperVerde, Mar 11, 2017.

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  1. CooperVerde

    CooperVerde Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2015 California

    Hoping the amazing BA community can help!

    TL;DR - Can I take a 5-gallon brew recipe, split it in half and brew both halves separately and then combine for fermentation due to equipment limitations?

    Full Context:


    I live in an apartment with a (new) glasstop electric stove. I only ever do BIAB. I typically have to size my brews down to 3 - 3.5 gallons (final volume in fermentor) because A) I haven't yet invested in a 8-10 gallon kettle, and B) I am almost positive I cannot get 5+ gallons of wort to a rolling boil on my stove top.

    My last batch (all grain pliny clone from Morebeer) I ended up with 3 gallons post-boil and added 0.8 gallon of bottled spring water to get the OG to where it was supposed to be, so ended up with my biggest ever batch before fermentation of 3.8 gallons.

    As everyone here knows, it's a lot of work to go through to get around 3 gallons in the bottles. So, I am curious if I can alter my approach and get crafty to achieve a 5 gallon batch.

    Proposed method:
    • Size down 5-gallon recipe into 2.5 gallon recipe using Beer Smith
    • Mash:
      • Option 1: Mash separately on stove top in two kettles
      • Option 2: Mash together in a 5.5 gallon polycabornate container with my sous vide stick (container is food grade and can be heated to up to 210 degrees)
    • Boil:
      • Option 1: Boil the two separate kettles separately using the halved recipes
      • Option 2: Split the single batch of wort into two kettles to boil separately
    • Cool, aerate and combine batches in my fermentation bucket and pitch yeast into the combined/full batch
    Would either/both of the above methods work? Anything I will need to consider if I take either of these approaches (e.g., water:grain ratios, efficiency, etc.)

    Thank you in advance!

    Best,
    Cooper
     
  2. OldBrewer

    OldBrewer Maven (1,385) Jan 13, 2016 Canada (ON)

    I can't see why either of the two options wouldn't work. The only real adjustment you might want to consider is hop utilization. By using smaller boiling amounts, your hop utilization will not be the same as it would be with a larger volume. You can probably figure out the difference by using BeerSmith or other brewing software or online programs.

    As for using a sous vide stick, I don't have any experience with that, but it might create some hot spots if not moved around constantly. Hopefully others with more experience can comment.
     
  3. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I brewed for more than 10 years using a single mash but splitting the mash into halves that boiled separately, on different stove burners. I couldn't get one burner to get a full batch to a boil but I could get two burners to bring half a batch to a boil. It worked fine. Split your hop additions evenly over both boils. At the end, combine, insert immersion chiller, and chill as a single batch.
     
    dmtaylor likes this.
  4. redgorillabreath

    redgorillabreath Zealot (511) Mar 29, 2015 Pennsylvania

    From my limited experience, I can only see two ways to have a problem (not necessarily indicated in your outline).

    1- splashing 180F+ wort around, inducing oxidation.
    2- having some sort of sanitation problem with the cooled worts prior to getting them into the fermenter, resulting in infection.

    Neither seem like they'd be very troublesome to deal with, though.

    The closest I've come is doing two mashes to make a 10 gallon batch.

    Enjoy!
     
  5. donspublic

    donspublic Grand Pooh-Bah (3,552) Aug 4, 2014 Texas
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Google Sous Vide and Mash https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/making-beer-with-a-sous-vide-immersion-cooker/. One thing to keep in mind, you must use a BIAB to keep the grain away from the intake on the sous vide. And it might help if you have something attached to the stick to keep the bag from getting sucked into the vents and restricting flows. After your mash make sure you get the stick out and disassemble it to clean the heating probe. I would not use the sous vide to heat the mash to boil temps, you are asking to cake sugars on the probe and people say that is a bitch to clean. I think it would work well for the mash.
     
  6. CooperVerde

    CooperVerde Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2015 California

    Thanks @donspublic. The sous vide portion is something I am very familiar with, as I always use this technique for my mashing. My question was about whether splitting the process into 2 half-sized brews would work. Thanks though!
     
  7. CooperVerde

    CooperVerde Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2015 California

  8. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,057) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I'm pretty sure that your question has come up in the past, and I think the general consensus was that you can split a batch as you propose to do, but this procedure will likely produce a slightly different beer. I think the reason was that the hops will not produce their full bitterness/flavor profile because of the smaller amount of liquid in which they boil (hop utilization). However, I think it was suggested that adding a larger quantity of hops could (would?) overcome this issue.

    I don't recall if there were any other issues to add to the above, but here is a list of previous threads that use 'split' in the thread's title that might be of use to you. Some threads don't apply to your question, but maybe some do. https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...t&t=post&o=date&g=1&c[title_only]=1&c[node]=8

    I also did a search without qualifying it to look only at thread titles, but a ton of posts were returned from that search. You can try it to see if you can find something more specific if my link above doesn't give you any help, and do that search using 'split' or 'split batch' or 'split + batch' or 'apartment' or 'utilization' and see what comes up. Or maybe since we bumped this thread to the top someone with more info will chime in.
     
  9. CooperVerde

    CooperVerde Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2015 California

  10. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Half the hops in half the volume (1/2 of both the starting and ending volumes), should yield the same IBUs. It's about the ratio of alpha acids to wort.

    I think the notion that bigger volumes increase hop utilization comes from these two facts...
    - The same amount of hops in two different boil volumes will result in more efficient utilization for the larger volume, because the ratio of alpha acids to wort is different. (Thus higher hop utililization for full boils vs partial boils).
    - Pro Brewers tend to get better bittering utilization in their very large boil kettles than we do, assuming the same proportions of hops to wort. But that's due in large part to the fact that it takes a long time to cool these batches down, so the hops contact time with the hot wort is extended.
     
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  11. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

  12. CooperVerde

    CooperVerde Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2015 California

    @dmtaylor

    Thanks for the vote of confidence here!

    Mind if I pick your brain just a little??

    Let's say I want to make a 6 gallon batch. I am going to mash in a single vessel (like you) using a sous vide machine to maintain the exact temp. From there, the plan is to divide exactly in half into two kettles and boil separately from there.

    So, my big question is this: have you adjusted recipes at all due to the split? Or, do I take my 6 gallon recipe and just split the hop bill in half?

    Second question is, once the boil is done, do you chill each bach of wort separately (I assume yes because it will be much faster) and then transfer / combine in fermentation vessel? If so, any key steps to take (or avoid) here?

    Thanks!!

    Cooper
     
  13. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (2,236) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    I also have equipment limitations that require me to split batches. The numbers that matter to me typically come up fine, or within range. SInce I do batch sparging, one pot is the first runnings, the second is the second runnings. So, the limitation actually also gives me the option to make two completely different beers as well.
    I chill them separately. If I'm combining them, I can pitch one to get the yeast moving, and come in with the second when that's cooled and ready.
    For hops. Sometimes I split them. Sometimes not. I'm more concerned with using the hop flavors, and aromatics, and not so much the blasting those into submission and utilizing them for bitterness. Be careful about what you wish for in maximizing your hop utilization. It's not always helpful, and there is definitely a point where it is too much for its own good.

    You can also look into liquoring back your beer post boil if you want to make a larger volume beer than what you have capacity for as well. i.e. deliberately brew it to a higher abv, and and bring it down to what you designed it for when you're ready to pitch.
    https://www.brewersfriend.com/dilution-and-boiloff-gravity-calculator/
    Or beersmith also has this in its tools.
     
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  14. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    The only thing you need to adjust is the boiloff rate. On my last 6-gallon batch on the stovetop in 3 kettles (pictured in Facebook), my boiloff rate was exactly 22%. Under normal single-kettle circumstances, it might have been closer to like 17-18%. This is because the extra burners and extra surface area of the boiling wort will cause you to lose more volume to evaporation. So, you'll need to sparge just a little extra or plan to add extra water at the end of the boil to hit your target volume of 6 gallons or whatever. So plan for that. But as for the recipe itself, I don't change a damn thing. Never worried about "hop utilization" or any of that jazz. It turns out great just ignoring any "advice" in that regard. However, I do split my hops about half and half between at least two (of my three) kettles.

    Near the end of the boil, the worts are concentrated enough that I try to combine them into just one kettle if I can, or mostly one kettle with a little on the side. For chilling, I'm a bit unconventional.... I don't own a chiller and never will. I chill in a cold water bath in a large tub sink, replacing the bath water every 20-30 minutes over the course of about an hour. People laugh but it friggin works. Assuming you own one chiller, just chill one the normal way and the other half in a tub sink like I do. It works great.

    P.S. Sometimes during winter I use snow. See picture below.

    Cheers.

    [​IMG]
     
    #14 dmtaylor, Apr 9, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
    machalel likes this.
  15. CooperVerde

    CooperVerde Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2015 California

    Thanks, @MostlyNorwegian and @dmtaylor! Both very helpful.

    Here is my process for a 5 gallon, all grain BIAB Pliny the Elder clone, would love to get your feedback:
    • Mash my grain in a fermentation bucket using my sous vide / immersion circulator machine to maintain exact temp. Mash details below:
      • Planning to mash in 5.5 gallons of bottled water @ 151 degrees
      • Mash for 60 minutes
      • Pull grain bag and let drain completely
      • Sparge (really just pouring over very loosely tied grain bag in separate bucket) at @ 164 degrees until I get enough second runnings to make 6 gallons total
    • Split wort into a 4 gallon kettle and 5 gallon kettles (what I have) for boil
      • Question: Should I split 1/2 and 1/2, even though that will mean 3 gallons boiling in a 4 gallon kettle or split proportionally? If the latter, should I use those same %s for splitting the boil hops?
    • Whirlpool both batches separately with manual spool method for 10 minutes
    • Chill both batches separately in ice baths (I always use ice baths) until I hit 68-70 degrees
    • Combine both batches of cooled wort into my fermentation bucket
    • Pitch liquid yeast
    • Ferment!
    This is only my 5th batch of homebrew, so I am still figuring it out as I go. Would really love any input you have!

    Thanks!
    Cooper
     
  16. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (2,236) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    Looks fine to me.
    My only suggestion is do the whirlpool as you are chilling. Personally, I've become a fan of getting the temp below 180 and doing my flame out/whirlpool additions then. You're not going after the flavor compounds at the steeping temps.
     
  17. CooperVerde

    CooperVerde Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2015 California

    @MostlyNorwegian @Mothergoose03 @dmtaylor calling all helpful homebrewers!

    Question on possible contamination of beer.

    So, it's been 4 full days since pitching my yeast. First 12-14 hours I got no activity, everything sank to the bottom, and there was nothing in suspension. Per the wisdom of multiple brew forums I gave the bucket fermenter a couple of quick swirls to kick things up into suspension and like magic fermentation was kicked into life. For the following 48+ hours the fermentation was vigorous and lively, everything remaining in suspension, airlock bubbling away. For the last 12 hours or so it has been clear that the fermentation has stopped or slowed down, as there are no bubbles, the krausen has fallen to the bottom and everything above it is clear and calm. As such, I decided to take a gravity reading...and here's where my question begins.

    I have heard from multiple people/forums that floating my hydrometer (sanitized of course) directly in my fermenter was fine and would help reduce the amount of lost beer. So, I got my trusty hydrometer out and noticed that at the bottom there had been a crack and a small piece of glass was missing at the very bottom "nub" for a lack of a better word, right where the bottom cone is filled in with (I think?) metal. I tested it in a tube of water to ensure that it was still water tight and floated at 1.000, which it was and it did.

    So, I sanitized the hydrometer as is, missing glass piece and all, and performed my SG reading directly in my fermenter (stupid I know). Side note, surprisingly the SG was a bit lower than I was anticipating, 1.005 to be exact (I typically am shooting for 1.010-1.012 for this beer), but I also didn't hit my intended OG of 1.07ish (overestimated my boil-off rate and ended up with too much water and came in closer to 1.06).

    I figured, "if I'm thoroughly sanitizing the hydrometer, my hands, then spraying with sanitizer solution the lid during taking it off and the underside before putting it back on, everything will be fine." After doing it though, the panic started to set in and I worried. Which led me to Googling. Which led me to realizing that the metal in these hydrometers might be lead!?

    Anyway, apologies for the long into here but the big question: given what I just told you about how I went about it and the pictures I am including the the cracked hydrometer, what are the chances I contaminated this batch and how/when will I start to know?

    You'll notice in the picture that there is a little shard of glass actually inside the hydrometer's bottom bubble. Honestly don't know if it was there since I got the hydrometer new, but it does not match the shape of the missing piece and I have literally no idea how it would have gotten inside...

    Thank you very much in advance!
    Cooper

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  18. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (2,236) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    Your beer should be safe from contamination with what you did in your sanitation program. But. Huh. Get a thief and extract some beer, and sample it while you check your gravity. No harm in that. Probably safer than what you are doing too.
    I'd probably think about replacing that hydrometer as well. Just be on the safe side of things and get rid of that one.
     
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  19. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,057) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Did it appear that a beer color was collecting inside the chamber where the lead resides? It's hard to tell anything from your pics. Lead is not like a fine powder and does not easily dissolve during a few minutes contact with a liquid, so I think you're okay. And I think it takes repeated exposures to lead before your body builds up enough of it to begin to cause concern. Children are more easily affected by lead build-up, and you're not giving your beer to kids. Maybe someone who is more into chemistry can counter my logic.

    Since your OG was lower than planned because of having too much water in your beer, you can also expect the FG to follow accordingly and be lower than expected too.
     
  20. CooperVerde

    CooperVerde Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2015 California

    @Mothergoose03 @MostlyNorwegian Thank you both!

    The beer color does not seem to have collected inside the chamber no. I did a more thorough test this afternoon by leaving the hydrometer floating in a beaker of water for over an hour and there is not a drop inside the chamber, so I think it's 100% water tight. That said, I will 100% be getting a new hydrometer.

    Good to know that the sanitizing program likely worked to cut out any nasties in this case!

    Is it BAD to check SG in the fermenter or just safer to do it with collection. I have a wine thief, I just was trying to avoid losing that much beer every time I am taking a reading.

    Thanks again!
     
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