Anyone have experience with these two together? Planning on brewing a saison soon, and was wondering if anyone had any advice on when to add the brett since the 3711 will devour anything in its path. Just want to make sure there's stuff for the brett to feed on? Brett in secondary? Pitch both in primary?
I don't have any experience with the particular yeast, but I would recommend using something a little less attenuative (why not the Private Collection Biere de Garde, Fantome yeast) or mashing higher than normal to provide some food for the brett. As far as primary or secondary, it depends on what kind of character you want. Based on the amount it eats, and therefore grows, produces flavors, ect, the character will change.
Considering they make blends, I suppose it's totally permissible to pitch them together. The Brett will have a slow start anyway letting the 3711 get started. However, I've read it's fine to pitch towards the end of primary. Brett is apparently the goat of yeasts and will eat just about anything. So even if 3711 takes you way down, the Brett will find something to munch on. May take some time for the character to shine though (regardless of when you pitch it). Here is a relevant thread over on the AHA forums - https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=15412.0
“Pitch both in primary?” That could potentially result in a very funky beer. My only experience in brewing with Brett is two batches using a blend of Belgian Ale yeast and Brett: Wyeast 3789. Those two batches turned out EXTREMELY funky! I am uncertain whether I can generalize the 3789 blend to conducting a primary of 3711 and Brett but I figured that I would provide that input. FWIW, I am very pleased with the beers I made with Wyeast 3789; I like the funk! Cheers!
We've used that blend as well, personally, I did not find the beer on the extreme side of funky though it certainly had the character.
The beers that I have homebrewed with 3789 are the funkiest beers that I have ever tasted. My wife calls those beers “horse piss” and that is a fair description of them. As a point of reference, my 3789 beers are funkier than Rayon Vert. Cheers!
Gotcha. Never had Rayon Vert, but I took your comment "extremely funky" as in funky in a bad way, and the "horse piss" comment kind of reaffirms that. Unless I'm assuming too much. Were they still enjoyable? Maybe I just need to get around your choice of descriptor. Don't get me wrong, the Orval clone we did with that blend was funky (and honestly did not remind me of Orval, lol), but not to the point of being disgusting. Everyone seemed to enjoy it. In fact, glancing over my notes, in the early stages the beer tasted like two beers in one - you got tartness in the font and it finished with definite musky notes. However after roughly four months, the flavors seem to blend together nicely. We've also used Wyeast 9097 in an Old Ale. There was definitely similarities between the too, but of course the Old Ale had a lot more going for it in the body department (maybe helping balance).
“Gotcha. Never had Rayon Vert, but I took your comment "extremely funky" as in funky in a bad way,” Well “extremely funky” is OK with me. As a reminder, I made two batches of Oval. If I did not like the funk I certainly would not repeat that beer. “ …and the "horse piss" comment kind of reaffirms that.” Permit me to emphasize that the descriptor of “horse piss” is my wife’s comment. I do not necessarily think that comment is inappropriate but I personally would not use those words to describe my 3789 beers “Unless I'm assuming too much. Were they still enjoyable?” Yes, as a ‘reminder’ I posted in my first post above: “I like the funk!” Also, I made two batches so needless to say I am a fan of the extreme funk that 3789 produces. “Maybe I just need to get around your choice of descriptor.” Again that is my wife’s descriptor. My wife likes to sip my homebrewed beers often. Below is a typical conversation: Me: I have a beer in my hand Wife: “I like beer” (that is her way of communicating that she wants a sip) Me: I hand her a glass of 3789 beer (Oval) Wife: She scrunches up her nose upon smelling the beer. Takes a very, very small sip and exclaims: “Why do you drink that horse piss!” Me: “Because I like the flavors of this beer” Cheers!
Haha, fair enough. We only did the Oval once. I'm guessing you also didn't think it tasted much like actual Orval?
“I'm guessing you also didn't think it tasted much like actual Orval?” Yeah, it doesn’t taste anything like Orval whatsoever. I had several conversations with Greg Doss and Jess Caudill of Wyeast at the recent NHC. One of the discussion topics was 3789 and the fact that it really is not an Orval clone strain. I actually gave a bottle of Oval to Greg on the last day of the NHC so he could take it home with him and sample what this yeast does (in my beers). As I was handing the bottle to Greg he asked: “Is this the beer that your wife calls horse piss?” I replied: “Yup”. I asked /requested to both Greg and Jess that they please make 3789 available again as part of their VSS program. Neither one would commit in that regard. I personally am a big fan of the 3789 blend but I am concerned that it may not be made available again since it is not even close to being an Orval clone blend. Cheers!
I recently made a 3 gallon batch of saison, which I split into 3: one with 3711 only, one with 3711 + Orval dregs, and 1 with 3711 + Stillwater Beer Table dregs. I pitched the brett dregs 36 hours after pitching the 3711. I figured that 36 hours in, 3711 had a fair amount of time to do its thing, while still leaving plenty for the brett to eat. They've been in primary for 20 days now. Will report back in a few weeks.
Strange, I did the NB Orval "Oval" clone with 3789 and got results that were very close to Orval. A bit more "yeast forward" than Orval but not anywhere as funky as Rayon Vert. Fermenting temp was 66 to 69 F. Maybe my results were due to using fairly low temperatures?
My two Oval batches fermentation temperatures; first week on a daily basis: Batch 1: Brew date 3/18/11 & Bottle Date 4/16/11 · 65, 66, 66, 76, 72, 69, 75, 69 Batch 2: Brew date 8/15/12 & Bottle Date 9/17/12 · 72, 78, 76, 75, 74, 74, 73, 73 Batch 1 was started ‘cooler’ and then warmed up. Batch 2 was in the 70’s throughout. Both batches were EXTREMELY funky. I did a side-by-side tasting of Batch 1 at 2 months in the bottle vs. a 6 month old Orval” Appearance: Orval slightly darker & more carbonated Aroma: Homebrew much funkier than Orval. Orval has a very slight hop/ester aroma. Homebrew is nothing but ‘barnyard’. Taste: ‘Barnyard’ dominates in homebrew. No perceptible ‘barnyard’ in Orval. Mouthfeel: Orval has a fuller mouthfeel. Overall: Orval is more ‘balanced’; Homebrew is all about the ‘barnyard’. Cheers!
Remaining sugar in the beer is probably less important than most people think. A lot of 'brett flavor' comes from some less understood metabolism processes that result in the more dramatic biotransformative magic. Brett doesn't need much sugar to create fatty acids at a level above the detection threshold and then only time and brett (and maybe some luck) is needed to transform them into the corrseponding and potentially enjoyable esters.
I just did a saison with 3711. It took it from a 1.066 down to a 1.002. It is a beast for sure. The 1.002 was lower than I wanted but I added the Brett Trois to 3 gallons of the batch anyways. We did it at bottling time with the sugar dose too. I just cracked the non-brett one last friday and it came out great for my first saison. I really liked the character of the 3711. Not too phenolic or spicy which was what I was going for. I kept the primary below 70 for the first 5 days. The brett ones are going to sit for 4-6 months in hoping that the brett will scavenge something to eat and develop from. The next time I might add the brett toward the end of primary and see if that makes a difference with more sugars to work off of.
I've had experience with 3724 and Brett. Grain bill was just pilsener and a little munich, pitched the 3724 in primary and fermented around 80 for two weeks. When the 3724 inevitably stalled around 1.020, I pitched a vial of Brett C and kept it at 70 for 3 months before bottling. It turned out a really nice, subtly funky beer. A year later and it continues to taste amazing. Had I pitched the Brett in primary I think it would have been too much. A few things I would do differently: * I would use 3711 for the fruitier profile to complement the Brett C. Since 3711 doesn't stall as often, I would pitch the Brett after the 3711 did most of its job. * I mashed at 150, I would do it higher to give the Brett some more to chew on. * Pitch multiple strains of Brett for complexity. Maybe B, C, and Trois. I still wouldn't pitch higher than 1.5B cells/5 gallon.
