I'm planning on doing a saison in a few weeks, once I get my carboy cleaned up from this beer that I'll finally be getting brew to this weekend. I was initially thinking of going with 3711 and might still, but I've had some saisons that have a little earthy funkiness to them that I really like. And according to Northern Brewer, 3711 doesn't have any of that. But I'm drawn to the dryness that I've heard this yeast can achieve. So my questions are: 1) Aside from Bretts and/or bugs, are there any readily available high-very high attenuating yeasts that also can through just a little mustiness? 2) Would doing 3711 for primary followed by a small inoculation of an earthier yeast for bottling be a possibility? 3) Since this is only my 3rd beer should I just stop fucking around, stick with the 3711 and experiment later? The rest of the recipe is: 3.3 lbs Pilsen LME 2 lbs Breiss Wheat DME 1 lb table sugar 1 oz Saaz (60 min) 1 oz Saaz (Flameout) Thanks!
When I see somebody use the descriptor of “earthy” I immediately think of the Bière de Garde beer style. Below is something I generated in a previous post which provides some discussion for a yeast that would be appropriate for that beer style. I have never personally brewed a Bière de Garde. I have sometimes thought about it but I have never formally gotten to the recipe formulation stage. Permit me to opine a bit about yeast selection since I think this might be a big factor in making a good Bière de Garde. A ‘good’ Bière de Garde in my opinion is malt forward with restrained ‘Belgiany’ tastes. Below are the Wyeast suggestions for yeasts to use in making a Bière de Garde. I have brewed with all of these strains and I will provide my opinions on the ‘applicability’ of each strain. I have used 2124 many, many times to brew my lagers. It seems that Wyeast is now listing an upper fermentation range of 68°F for this strain. I must admit that I am ‘prejudiced’ as regards this yeast strain. I would only feel comfortable using this strain at lager temperatures (e.g., 50°F). I use 3787 a lot. That is my ‘go to’ yeast for making my Dubbels. I ferment this yeast around 72°F in making my Dubbels to maximize the esters and phenolics that this yeast strain can produce. Allegedly 3787 can make a more ‘neutral’ beer if you ferment cooler (e.g., 64°F). If you use this yeast, MAKE SURE YOU FERMENT COOL! I used 1388 once to make a Duvel clone. My experience with this yeast was that it was on the ‘neutral’ side. This might be a good choice for a Bière de Garde. Just a word of caution, my Duvel clone came out over-carbonated. Wyeast provides this disclaimer for this yeast: “It may continue to produce CO2 for an extended period after packaging or collection.” I have used 1762 a few times for Belgian Ales; most recently for a Belgian Porter. I have found that this yeast will behave as a more ‘neutral yeast if ferment on the cool side (e.g., 68°F). I think this would be a good choice for a Bière de Garde. I have used 2565 many times in making my Kolsch beers. It has been my consistent experience that this yeast requires a lengthy time for the beer to properly ‘clear’. It makes a tasty Kolsch but I wouldn’t recommend it for a Bière de Garde. Wyeast 1007 is the yeast I use to make my Alt beers. It is a clean yeast. I think this would be a good choice for a Bière de Garde. I have used 3711 a couple of times to make my Saison beers. My experience with this yeast is that it produces a lot of spicy/pepper flavors. I would not recommend this for a Bière de Garde. So, in summary I would recommend 1762 (fermented on the cool side) or 1007. Good luck with your Bière de Garde. Cheers! Wyeast recommend yeast strains for a Bière de Garde 2124 - Bohemian Lager™ 3787 - Trappist High Gravity™ 1388 - Belgian Strong Ale™ 1762 - Belgian Abbey II™ 2565 - Kölsch™ 1007 - German Ale™ 3711 - French Saison Wyeast 3725-PC Biere de Garde Yeast Beer Styles: Saison, Biere de Garde, Belgian Blonde Ale, Belgian Pale Ale, Belgian Golden Strong Ale Profile: Low to moderate ester production with subtle spiciness. Malty and full on the palate with initial sweetness. Finishes dry and slightly tart. Ferments well with no sluggishness. Alc. Tolerance 12% ABV Flocculation low Attenuation 74-79% Temp. Range 70-84°F (21-29°C) The above profile sound like a ‘good’ Bière de Garde to me.
+1 on 1762. I have used it in BPAs a few times and got what I would describe as a bit of 'earthy' in the mix. But it's not going to attenuate like either of the commonly used Saison strains. You could try pitching a blend.
Yeah, at this point it looks like a blend is probably what will end up happening. Because I really want the dryness. What I might do is bottle half and then throw in some Brett B. from a bottle or two of Orval for the remainder. I wish I had the means to just do three or four separate fermentations here, but that's not an option here. Jack, I have only had a couple bieres de garde and I can't figure out - are they a lager or an ale? One tasted pretty lager-esque, but another definitely started encroaching on saison territory.
They can be made with lager or ale yeasts. But either way, they benefit from long lagering periods after fermentation.
I consider a Bière de Garde as an ale since it is typically fermented with an ale yeast strain. You could also classify it as a hybrid: primary fermented with an ale yeast strain but conditioned (lagered) at cooler temperatures if one chooses to conduct a cool conditioning process post primary. Below is a paragraph from the BJCP style guidelines: “History: Name literally means “beer which has been kept or lagered.” A traditional artisanal farmhouse ale from Northern France brewed in early spring and kept in cold cellars for consumption in warmer weather. It is now brewed year-round. Related to the Belgian Saison style, the main difference is that the Bière de Garde is rounder, richer, sweeter, malt-focused, often has a “cellar” character, and lacks the spicing and tartness of a Saison.” Cheers!
Thanks guys. Since I'm hoping to have this batch drinkable by mid-July at the latest, I may have to forgo the lagering route this year. But given what I'm working with, is that reasonable? I'm hoping I can get this brewed on May 26th. Semi-related - do you know how long Orval conditions at the brewery before it's shipped? I've heard it ages quite well, but I've only had it fresh-ish and found it delightful.
“Thanks guys. Since I'm hoping to have this batch drinkable by mid-July at the latest, I may have to forgo the lagering route this year. But given what I'm working with, is that reasonable?” Well, what exactly are you “working with”? Have you made a final decision in what you are doing here? In the absence of answers to the above questions: if I were to brew a Biere de Garde I personally would not perform lagering with that beer. My fermentation/conditioning process would be to primary ferment with an ale yeast (e.g. 1762) for about a week and then condition at room temperature for about a week. If you introduce Brett into the mix then you are looking at an extended fermentation/conditioning timeframe. How long will that take? As long as the Brett wants it to be. There is no way to ‘schedule’ Brett. Brett could finish in a period of weeks or it could finish in a period of months. It depends on the strain of Brett used and the beer that the Brett is ‘working’ on. To the question of Orval, below provides some details on the Orval process (you should not assume that this will ‘translate’ to you homebrewing): “Yeast The Orval use of two different yeasts - one in primary, a second in secondary B. Brux (then again in bottling) - is totally controlled. One does it's work, then the other. Fermentation Orval pitches the Bastogne yeast for primary at about 3million cells/ml wort which lasts about a week or so at quite a cool temperature in 60-62F. They then spin most of the primary yeast out and adds the Brett (B. Brux) in secondary at 1000-5000 cells/ml. It stays in this 'holding' tank for about 3 weeks at 56F. Let the beer stay in the sencondary and then add the dry hops for the final week. Bottling The beer is now polished (centrifuged/ 'filtered') which leave it basically clean. They they repitch both yeasts at the same rate they pitched before which will have the following make up: Main fermentation yeast : 3 millions cells/ml Brettanomyces : 1.000 to 5.000 cells/ml As for carbonation, Orval wants to be at ~3 volumes after 3 weeks of conditioning at 56F, and expects the Brett to take it to ~4.5vol after a year. Calculating the amount of sugar for 5 gallons is very straight forward. You first want to assume that you have a about one volume of CO2 remaining in solution (at 70F) and then subtract that from the volume you want.” If you are really trying to make an Orval type beer for your third batch of beer I would highly recommend that you think otherwise. Making an Orval type beer requires quite a bit of experience to properly make. Cheers!
Definitely not. I'm just trying to look at different options to possibly get exactly what I want. But there's no way of knowing that. And I bet if I just used 1762 or 3711 I'd be pretty darn satisfied. But as my wife can attest, I usually gotta find some way to take culinary endeavors into unknown territory. With food I'm willing to accept 'failure' as a result, as I've yet to make something inedible, though 'not optimal' can happen from time to time. I'm not positive I'm in the same place with brewing, but in general I tend to insist (I'm not sure why) on learning by having things go wrong. There's the rub. I had a feeling this was the case. Now, what matters more to me? Playing with yeast or having a full batch of a crisp, refreshing homebrew for the dog days of summer, or would a half batch be enough while I screw around with whatever else the second half is? Things to think about... I'm under no illusions that this would turn out anything like Orval. I just know that it's a readily available source of Brett B. and I wouldn't be at all upset about drinking some to save the dregs. This part of things isn't an essential to this batch. But if it seems like a viable possibility I'll go for it. I've also never cultured yeast before, so if I give it a shot and it goes nowhere, well, then I'll either have to reschedule or just ferment it and like it. But thank you for all that info on Orval! Someday I will absolutely be making a BPA and that will certainly come in handy.
It sounded good to me too, and I used it a few times last year. Except for when I fermented it in the low 60s, there were a lot of esters. Reminded me of artificial grape flavoring (like grape soda). Not much spiciness. I would also say that it is definitely capable of some very high attenuation, almost, but not quite as much as 3711. I doubt I would use it again. Not currently available, so its a moot point. To the OP, I would go ahead with the 3711, and maybe try to get the earthiness from hops. UK Fuggles are about as earthy as they come. I have also heard that Glacier is very earthy as well.
You don't have to lager a Bière de Garde (if that's what you're brewing), but traditionally, lagering (extended cold storage) was practically the definition of Bière de Garde. I'm sure you can make a good beer without it, but it will be different without aging/cold conditioning.
Well according to OldSock, in this entry he says just pitch dregs directly from the bottle. Doesn't get much easier than that. This messes with my timeline some, but I think I just need more Brett in my life, even if it does take a little longer. The 3725 sounds like a good bet for primary, but I'll probably do it a little warmer (68-70) to avoid some of the esters MrOH mentioned. Though at that temp, I'll probably be getting some other esters. Of course, this brew is around 3 weeks out, so there's still plenty of time to change my mind again. But I like the direction this is heading.
A few comments. If you want to try the pitching of dregs from a bottle it is an extremely good idea to follow Oldsock’s instructions of: “Fresh bottles are your best bet for harvesting.” Even if you obtain a fresh bottle you really never know how things will turn out when you pitch bottle dregs. You may want to re-read what MrOH posted: “Except for when I fermented it in the low 60s, there were a lot of esters.” So if you desire a beer with low esters you want to ferment cool (low 60s). If you ferment at the temperatures you stated, 68-70, you seem to be assured of obtaining a lot of esters. I don’t know about you, but getting artificial grape flavors in a beer does not sound appealing to me. Cheers!
And that's why I need a chaperone! And/or should probably spend less time here while I'm at work. Also, the fact that it's no longer available does make it, as he said, a moot point. Ugh, I used to have well above-average reading comprehension skills. I guess at this point I'll be lucky if I don't pitch baker's yeast by accident.
3725 is a specialty strain which Wyeast makes available from time to time. It was last available in April – June 2012. Cheers!
