Adding packaged on/best buy dates

Talk Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by officerbill, Aug 17, 2020.

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  1. officerbill

    officerbill Pooh-Bah (2,228) Feb 9, 2019 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    My understanding is that beer, unlike most other consumables, doesn't spoil with age unless the seal has been broken. It will lose flavor, carbonation, etc and may become unpalatable, but doesn't really expire and become hazardous to drink.

    Having only a “best by” date with no other context doesn't benefit the consumer very much.
    Did the brewer pick a date 6 months, 9 months, 12 or even 18 months from bottling?
    Is their definition of Best By “no noticable difference”, “still tastes good”, or “drinkable”?
    Is that date based on cold storage throughout the entire chain, or cases sitting at room temperature in a warehouse or stock room?
    Is some industry group going to step in and declare that breweries use an official quality duration for each style so each brewery is on a level field regarding terminology and dating?

    Personally I would prefer to have both dates
    (B: 09/01/20 BB: 03/01/21) on the packaging, but barring that, give me the bottling date.
     
    #41 officerbill, Sep 9, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  2. officerbill

    officerbill Pooh-Bah (2,228) Feb 9, 2019 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Your response to @JackHorzempa on this point wasn't really clear to me.
    Are you saying that your distributors accept the brewery's Best By date as the product expiration date and will swap out the “expired” beers for fresh?
     
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  3. Beer_Stan

    Beer_Stan Initiate (0) Mar 15, 2014 California
    Trader

    That is exactly what happens, because "unpalatable"due to age or other factors, in this industry is the same as spoilage and even still I try to avoid using it, the real trick is to not over buy product. That being said, the industry is a mess and benefits those who buy high amounts of product so that later they can be considered for the allocated rarer releases and be the "it" store in town. Ask any of your local stores what they have to go through to get some of those beers, and you'll see a lot of them will buy up a lot of beer and return them later once "expired" so they look good on paper for the brewery or distributor at first and get the sought after beer then they return the past date beer for credit or even swaps. Abuse is rampant if you really look and a lot of these factors directly affect the markets, which beers you see on shelves, in which quantities, etc.
     
  4. nc41

    nc41 Initiate (0) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Trader

    I’m not really concerned with being poisoned by beer that stretches to the best by date, but I don't want to pay full price for a sub par beer. If it’s a hoppy beer tell me when you put it in the can, to be consistent tell me when you put every beer into the can. I’m not worried about acceptable dates everyone is different on that , I’m looking for what I’d consider optimum dates, then I’ll decide,
     
  5. officerbill

    officerbill Pooh-Bah (2,228) Feb 9, 2019 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    That's interesting.
    I've been told that in NY a distributor can swap out stale beer under instruction from the brewery or importer, but retailers can't demand a distributor take back stale beer because the Best By date is simply a brewery's recommendation for flavor, not a true product expiration date.
     
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  6. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,145) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    But that's exactly the point of brewers using "Best by/before" sorts of dating - few brewers call it an expiration date and no one ever suggests that it'll "kill ya". I'd say, tho', that for beer "unpalatable" is "spoiled". And there are many other consumer products that are not hazardous after their arbitrary "Use By" dates (often 1 year - imagine that! 365 days 366 days in leap years. Ketchup, canned soup, cookies or bottle water. Good until September 30, bad on October 1st. :astonished:)

    Yeah, that's what I've always said (and brewers are doing it more often these days). Either:
    BEST BEFORE XX-XX-XX - 90 DAYS AFTER CANNING
    or
    BOTTLED ON XX-XX-XX - BEST WITHIN 90 DAYS
    but, at least, let folks know on your brewery website's FAQ.

    But those factors are still in-play and usually unknown to the consumer who prefers the packaging date, too.

    Who's suggested that? In the US I'd imagine it's always going to be up to the brewer, just as it is for just about every other product (except for eggs/dairy in some states and baby formula on the Federal level, IIRC).

    That's why many brewers and distributors still call the dates "Pull dates" - the date the beer is (supposed to) be pulled off the shelf and replaced/credited. From a MILLERCOORS pdf of a few years ago:
    Sample Brewer/Distributor Contract language:
     
  7. nc41

    nc41 Initiate (0) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Trader

    As an example Beertunes is drinking beers I sent him that are older than hell. Billy Beer, remember that, late 70s? Worlds Fair beer Circa Mid 1980s. He ticked them off very easily, but I bet he wouldn’t pay $11 a sixer for today’s equivalent. It’s extreme and they’re off brands, but still..
     
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  8. officerbill

    officerbill Pooh-Bah (2,228) Feb 9, 2019 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Best By dates can be useful in determining the freshness of beer, but only if the consumer also knows the duration used by the brewery.

    Having a Best By date of 11/01/20 on three similar beers doesn't mean much unless you're aware that brewery A uses 3 months from bottling, while B uses 6 months, and C uses 12.
    C may have chosen 12 months because they recommend the beer be kept cold from the time it leaves the brewery, whereas the beer is actually stored in a stock room and on a shelf rendering C's estimate meaningless; the buyer knows the beer isn't refrigerated, but doesn't know C's BB is based on a faulty assumption.

    Leaving Best By up to the brewer without also requiring then to provide a duration of bottling date doesn't do anything to alleviate the situation. Two breweries, putting out almost identical beers, could have dates months apart. Absent some accepted baseline a brewery choosing a date based on quality could be at a disadvantage to one choosing a date based on marketing.

    I know AB, MC, Pilsner Urquel, and probably a couple of others require distributors to pull their beers after a certain age, but those are in a small minority.
    I was told, at two different beer stores, that distributors will swap out old beer if the brewery or importer requires them to, but that retailers can't force it from their end.
    I can honestly say that I've never seen an example of a distributor or a retailer pulling a craft beer or import simply because it was past the BB date; at best it just goes onto the singles rack.
    I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it doesn't happen around here.
     
    #48 officerbill, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
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  9. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,145) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Yes, and I wrote as much (I know the brewers' "shelf life" duration on the beers I buy that use "Best Before" type dates) . Look, I am not "pro-BB" - my earlier comment about their common use on other consumable products and AB changing to them is just fact. I don't like it, either.

    Well, Pilsner Urquell is a Molson Coors import in the US (dating back to the early 2000s when SAB bought Miller and then contained within the agreement with the DoJ which allowed AB to buy SABMiller).

    AB and MC distributors are pretty much the majority in most markets (if not in number of wholesalers, the number of brands) :grin: but, I agree, even they aren't very active in removing OoC non-AB and MC brands. I've seen a large craft distributor remove old stock - once when I joked to the rep about a store finally getting a new shipment of a then-hot brand but it was a week away from the "Best by" date and he actually picked it the next day. ("Hey, dude, I was only kiddin'!") I know he was often drinking out of date returned beer at home that the company gave away to employees.

    I don't recall NYS law on returns and can't speak to what two retailers told you but there is no doubt that both Federal and state alcoholic beverage laws are complicated on the topic because returns can be misused. MC got fined a few years ago because their "Buy back" program didn't conform with the consignment sales rules (AB did the same the following year). A couple of years later the TTB put out Ruling 2017-2 that superseded and further spelled out the rules.
    Quotes on the standard industry convention of wholesale distributors having to absorb the cost of pulling old stock (which, of course, explains their reluctance to).
     
    #49 jesskidden, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
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  10. nc41

    nc41 Initiate (0) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Trader

    Best By dates are arbitrary and imo don’t count for much, I don’t feel like picking up a beer and figure it out by counting backwards to figure out when it was canned assuming you even know what they consider acceptable. Is it posted on the bottle, on their web sight? Why do I have to research a beer to figure out if I want to buy it? Some are 6 months, PU is 9 I believe, Jever is what 15 months. A bit too much latitude within the same style, and I do understand why some breweries don’t want to date their beer. I just rarely/never buy their stuff. Hey it’s a competitive world with thin margins, and I respect the breweries who put the canning date where it’s clear and legible. I seen a few that all seem to be illegible and smeared, I don’t buy them. I’ve notified breweries that I won’t buy their beer if they don’t post a can or bottle date that’s clear and easy to use, I don’t like codes and I don’t carry a book on decoding. I tell them also what beer I did buy because I knew is was 32 days old as an example. I’m only one but if they get enough people complaining they may take a second look, it shouldn’t be so hard to understand why an informed customers what’s to know these things. With no industry standards I don’t accept buy it and take my chances, not with $18/4 pks of NEIPAS.
     
  11. officerbill

    officerbill Pooh-Bah (2,228) Feb 9, 2019 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    My fault then, I misread it as you saying BB dates for beer have the same value as bottling dates .
    We do agree that having both dates on the bottle is preferred. I have several beers with that info and BB durations of 3-5 years :wink:

    I didn't realize that, it helps explain PU's unusually short (for an import) duration and rotation.

    Your quote of the pertinent regs (my emphasis)
    How common is it for regional/foreign breweries or importers to have those policies and procedures spelled out in their distribution contract?
    I can't imagine a small to mid-sized brewery willingly reimbursing a distributor for numerous cases of unsold, out of date beer or a distributor willingly eating the loss on beer a store couldn't sell.

    Next up; how do you feel about dates printed in black, water soluble ink, on brown bottles? :grin:
     
    #51 officerbill, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  12. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,145) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    One of the few Sixpoint beers I ever bought regularly was their helles, Alpenflo. It disappeared in my market and I was happy to see it again (although it was only in sixes not 12-packs) last month.

    The former owner, Shane Welch, used to regularly post on these BA forum and he was raked over the coals a number of times over both his date coding and not listing his contract-brewer's city on his labels (I did a little of that rakin' myself).

    But, to his credit, he did change the labels to show the actual brewing city (Memphis when he used City's brewery there) AND even his dating method to show both the "Packaged on" and "Best by" date. He even had a die-cut bottom on their cardboard sixpack box*, so you could read the bottom of one of the cans!

    (* Which more brewers should adopt. I can think of a handful of beers I haven't bought recently because while the cans are apparently dated, the outside box isn't. And I forgot to bring my packaging tape - 'cause I believe in being kind to the retail workers! Nobody wants to pick up those rolling cans...)

    So, anyway, I was happy to see Alpenflo and, flipping over the sixpack, see a Best by date of January, 2021! Wow. Fresh stuff. Oh, wait, the canning date was also January - of this year. WTF! 8 month old beer. Oh, yeah, unlike most of his beers he gave it a 1 year shelf life :grimacing: and new owner ABV kept it. Lucky for me, they also kept the dual dating system!
     
  13. officerbill

    officerbill Pooh-Bah (2,228) Feb 9, 2019 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I've never really considered that. Does knowing the location of the brewery make much of a difference (other than knowing how far the beer has travelled)?
     
  14. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,145) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    It makes a difference to some folks, not necessarily for freshness but honesty. In the case of Sixpoint, it was their constantly boasting of their Brooklyn/NYC roots (right down to a barcode that mimic-ed the Manhattan skyline), while most of their packaged beers were done at The Lion in Wilkes-Barre PA (Google Map the PA address) and later City in Memphis (during which time they changed the labeling - below).

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Spade

    Spade Pooh-Bah (2,568) Mar 27, 2006 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I've never asked to look at the back room of a beer store, but I see your point.

    Got me wondering- is it plausible for fresher beer to "pass" the older during transit? Like, a wholesaler gets a newer supply and ships it out while older stock sits there?
     
  16. jkrich

    jkrich Pooh-Bah (1,878) Nov 1, 2001 Florida
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Weihenstephaner is one of my favorite German breweries, but I am also frustrated with the coding on the bottle. I believe their sales would increase with a more transparent dating system. I was pleased to see Anchor Brewing switch to a conventional dating system.
     
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  17. mactrail

    mactrail Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,999) Mar 24, 2009 Washington
    Mod Team BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Long discussion on policy and business practices, but here is one fact and one opinion:
    1. West Coast IPAs in cans have become almost universally dated "canned on," tiny brewpubs as well as large breweries.
    2. Adding dates to BA reviews can be done in the text. It's sometimes interesting to see how many years people are drinking some stuff, and other times to be sure which version of Head Full of Dynomite you're drinking. But not very meaningful as a routine stat.
     
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