Ale vs Lager

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by DriveFastDrinkSlow, Mar 19, 2014.

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  1. RobH

    RobH Pundit (908) Sep 23, 2006 Maryland

    Craft beer bars in the Washington, D.C. area, meaning those that do NOT have anything from Bud/Miller/Coors on their beer lists, most often suggest a Kolsch to the customers who have no idea what kind of beer bar they just walked into who invariably ask for a Bud/Miller/Coors Light. This, at least, has been my observation.
     
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  2. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,313) Nov 20, 2005 England
    Pooh-Bah

    It's a top fermented lager.It was created after the introduction of the Reinheitsgebot in 1906 , this only applied to bottom fermented beer so they simply switched the yeast to get round it. That was because it contained illegal ingredients under the RHG.As it was lagered it became defined as lagerbier.
     
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  3. StuartCarter

    StuartCarter Pundit (922) Apr 25, 2006 Alabama

    Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this truly fascinating and infromative thread - once it's settled down, maybe it could be entered in a BA "Hall Of Fame" for future reference?
     
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  4. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    Are you saying that Köln brewers switched from bottom fermentation to top fermentation in 1909? Were brewers in Köln brewing bottom fermented lager beer prior to this (or rather, the original "Kölsch bier" brewers specifically)? Or did I misread you.
     
  5. Chaz

    Chaz Grand Pooh-Bah (3,668) Feb 3, 2002 Minnesota
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Yours is an observation similar to the one I've made over the past twenty-odd years, RobH.

    First they recommend Kolsch style ale, then the robust-yet-mellow Amber ales, and finally, the challenge of the bitter and spicy American Pale Ale! It's a bit funny how it's such a pretty universal experience, but on the other hand it is good to see that the booze biz (and especially at the level of the service industry) has some commonality. :slight_smile:
     
  6. Roguer

    Roguer Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,811) Mar 25, 2013 Connecticut
    Mod Team Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    That's exactly right. Sadly, Americans don't drop their "H"s, but they still use an because they think it makes them sound more intelligent and cultured. This results in the exact opposite effect: they sound ridiculous, because they don't understand why or when "an" is appropriate.

    Hmm, I may be convincing myself to come around to your side on porters and lagers.

    Separately, I've always considered a Kölsch to be, well, a Kölsch; if hard-pressed (before reading these threads), I would have gone with lager instead of ale. That's just how it comes across to me.
     
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  7. Domingo

    Domingo Grand Pooh-Bah (4,252) Apr 23, 2005 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah

    Yeah, that's how it is out here, too...and I don't disagree with the recommendation either. It's certainly the closest thing in most instances. While it seems like many breweries are phasing the style out, the good 'ol American Blonde Ale would be at least moderately close, too. For a long time that was what brewpubs would offer to customers who wanted something similar to BMC but wouldn't tie up their space, time, and efforts with lagering.
     
  8. Tut

    Tut Pundit (872) Sep 23, 2004 New York

    I agree that it's one of those beers that doesn't neatly fit either category, but given its shared roots with altbier, and the fact that this source and numerous others classify them as ales, I'll continue to do so. I will point out the fact that they're fermented at colder temps., though, if I'm discussing it.

    http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/K%F6lsch.html
    "In a country dominated by lagers of all strengths and colors, the modern Kölsch (the beer) is Germany's only true, all-barley, pale ale. The other German pale ale is, of course, the Bavarian Weissbier or Weizen, made mostly from wheat. Then there is the copper-colored Altbier from Düsseldorf, 25 miles down the river Rhine from Cologne, which is an ale like the Kölsch and usually made entirely from barley."
     
    #208 Tut, Mar 24, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
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  9. Hoppsbabo

    Hoppsbabo Pooh-Bah (2,053) Jan 29, 2012 England
    Pooh-Bah

    My thoroughly scientific perspective on Kölsch is that you only have to drink the stuff to see that it's lager.
     
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Rob, you might be interested in reading about the Kolsch Konvention:

    The brewing of Kolsch beers in Cologne (Koln) is defined by the Kolsch Konvention: “a light-colored, highly fermented, strongly hopped, bright, top fermented Vollbier."

    There is only mention of the beer being top fermented and no mention of lagering in the definition of a Kolsch beer by the Kolsch Konvention.

    Cheers!

    P.S. A Vollbier is simply a German definition of beer strength from an alcohol perspective; “One of four German beer tax categories. Vollbier literally means "full" or "entire" beer. It contains 11 to 14% extract. This beer category holds about 99% market share in Germany. A completely fermented Vollbier usually has between 3 and 5.3% alcohol by volume. Pils, Helles and Weissbier (Hefeweizen) belong in this category”
     
    #210 JackHorzempa, Mar 25, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
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  11. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    So Koelsch is actually neither an ale nor a Lagerbier, but a Vollbier.
     
  12. Hoppsbabo

    Hoppsbabo Pooh-Bah (2,053) Jan 29, 2012 England
    Pooh-Bah

    I think just carry on calling things the way we call them in our respective countries.
     
  13. Tut

    Tut Pundit (872) Sep 23, 2004 New York

    It's not just the USA and Britain. It's pretty much the the rest of the beer world and Britain.

    Still, I'd totally agree with your statement if certain English BA's would drop their incessant campaign to convince us all that we're confused and in error and only the British definitions and terminology, etc. are correct. That's not likely to happen though, so we'll be responding to their anglo-centric assertions for the foreseeable future.
     
    #213 Tut, Mar 25, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  14. sczaplicki

    sczaplicki Initiate (0) Nov 8, 2009 California

    I'm a bit late to the party, but here are my 2 cents.

    Ales are fermented by the species of yeast called Saccharomyces Cerevisiae, which, without getting into too much detail, is a warm fermenting and top fermenting yeast strain.

    Lagers are fermented by the species of yeast called Saccharomyces Pastorianus, which is a cold fermenting and bottom fermenting yeast strain.

    The basic categorization of ales and lagers nowadays is: If it's brewed with Saccharomyces Cerevisiae then it's an ale, if it's brewed with Saccharomyces Pastorianus then it's a lager.

    Lager is a division of beer, along with ale; however, as many of you have pointed out, lagering also means to cold condition a beer for a length of time. You can lager any type of beer. Lagering a beer does not make it a lager. What makes it a lager is if it's fermented with the lager strain Saccharomyces Pastorianus.

    Kölsch and California Common are two of a few styles that are considered hybrid.

    Kölsch is fermented with an ale strain (Saccharomyces Cerevisiae - http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp029-german-ale-kölsch-yeast?s=homebrew), however, it is fermented colder than typical ale strain temperatures and it lagered (cold conditioned). Rest assured that a Kölsch is technically an ale, but it's considered more of a hybrid.

    California Common is fermented with a lager strain (Saccharomyces Pastorianus - http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp810-san-francisco-lager-yeast?s=homebrew); however, it is fermented at ale strain temperatures (warm) and it is not traditionally lagered (cold conditioned). Just because it's not lagered does not make it an ale. Rest assured that it is technically a lager, but it's considered more of a hybrid.
     
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  15. Tut

    Tut Pundit (872) Sep 23, 2004 New York

    You may have come in late, but you obviously took the time to read through this detailed and lengthy thread. Your sussinct post adds much to the discussion.

    PS: Can we drop the side discussion on grammer? As a retired teacher I find it interesting, but it's taking up too much space on this thread, and making the main topic hard to follow.
     
    #215 Tut, Mar 25, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
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  16. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,313) Nov 20, 2005 England
    Pooh-Bah

    This is the received wisdom as purveyed by many people but it's based on rather shaky ground.The yeast strains are the outcome of the temperature at which the different beers are brewed.
    It's also a hostage to fortune.Development of commercial yeast strains may well make this argument irrelevant, ale brewers using conical fermenters are already using varieties which look a bit suspicious.
     
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  17. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Fixed that for you. :grinning:

    A good Kölsch will carry some light fruit esters from it's original top-fermenting that will help discern it from a bottom-fermented beer.
     
  18. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Add the white wine esters that are a signature of many, from the specific Koelsch yeast variety used by some of the breweries. Never had that in a lagered lager. :wink:
     
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  19. RobH

    RobH Pundit (908) Sep 23, 2006 Maryland

    Good point. Thanks Jack. I had heard of this before however it had slipped my mind.
     
  20. sczaplicki

    sczaplicki Initiate (0) Nov 8, 2009 California

    My explanation is the way that ales and lagers are being divided nowadays by the vast majority of professional breweries. Whether or not most of the whole world is right or wrong by a technicality is a different argument all together. I'm no expert by any means, but I'm 100% comfortable with my post by today's standards.
     
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