Ale vs Lager

The US brewing industry developed and evolved differently than those of either the UK or Germany, and as a result the beers brewed in the US, even though they began as versions of the European originals, also evolved differently. The beers changed and new types were developed, based on both available raw ingredients, market conditions and consumer preferences. With that, even the common brewing terminology, although it originated in Europe, also changed.

Originally, all beer (common/small beer, ale, porter, stout) brewed in the US was top fermented and was, primarily, brewed by British empire immigrants, but even the few German founded breweries that predated the arrival of lager yeast in the US (1840s) brewed those styles. Yuengling the classic example.

After lager yeast made it to the US and with lager beer’s introduction, and when the US industry really took off, it became common to divide the US industry into lager brewers and ale (and porter) brewers. The brewers divided themselves up that way in their organizations, the state/federal governments did as well, and even the early brewery worker local unions did the same. (In some respects, that was a cultural choice, as well - the lager brewers and workers groups often conducted meetings in German, and their publications were also in their native language.)


By tradition, and because of the yeast used and other brewing processes, ale brewers in the US also brewed porter and stout (often called “brown stout” in the US) but, as the industry evolved in the late 19th century, many ale brewers added lager beer to the portfolios (often building separate brewhouses and cellars) and, to a lesser extent, German-founded lager breweries brewed porters to meet local demand. But generally the ale/lager breweries were also logically divided by the yeast used – top- or bottom-fermenting, respectively.

By the turn of the century, as the so-called “Pure Food” movement began and the US government reacted to it, the Feds needed to define the industry’s products. (There were even proposals to legally define “lager beer” and “(all) malt beer” and to mandate lagering time length and ingredients allowed.) Initial government proposals in 1906 included this for ale, porter and stout.

The United States Brewers Association countered with:

So, the concept that porter and stout were ales, though a minority one at first, existed in the US for much longer than suggested in posts above. As late as the 1940's, the MBAA's The Practical Brewer still used "top/bottom fermenting yeast" as the division of US beers, but by the 1970s edition, the MBAA was using the terms "ale yeast" and "lager yeast".

 

So it wasn't ignorant Homebrewers!

Thanks for the informative post.

 

Yeah, I knew of this too, I just wanted to point out etymologies, since, as a linguist, not pointing out etymologies when appropriate is a mortal sin.

Here's a more detailed page that also points out the unhopped vs. hopped distinction in English brewing tradition. What's also interesting is that is notes that, after hopping was ubiquitous, that "beer" was the more common term in cities, while "ale" tended towards the countryside.

 

Wow, I don't know if the OP bargained for all this knowledge y'all just slung his way. Pretty soon this thread may be the definitive article on lager versus ale.

 

Jeff, did you mean to state: “So it wasn't “Homebrew Twats"!?!

Cheers!

 

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It won't be in Britain. Some of them think the old Empire still exists and the world looks to them to provide it with guidance and standards in all things. They haven't grasped that we Yanks went our own way in the brewing world long ago. Because of our cultural diversity, we evolved definitions and terms that were hybrids from different brewing heritages and were thus more universally accepted throughout the world. The Brits stubbornly cling to their quaint and antiquated beer terminology and are baffled that the rest of us don't accept the "correct" usage.

The thread was slowing down. This post ought to stir it up a bit!

 

Yes, like the Texas definition of ale.
It's relatively easy to understand why some people use "ale" to include stouts and porters . It's basically a matter of differing recipes and if there is a different brewing heritage the differences won't seem that large. It's no bad thing to look back and see where things came from because you can't understand the present without a sense of context. If people understood the "quaint and antiquated beer terminology" the number of howlers in beer publications would be far fewer.
That's why St.Patrick's Day is a big thing and people describe themselves as Italian/German/Irish/Polish Americans.The past shaped the present.
German beers though are not included. Their top fermented brews have hardly anything in common with ales , they don't call them ales and perhaps that should be respected.The world doesn't look to the American Empire to provide it with guidance either.

 

I knew you'd take the bait. You're not going to admit it, but Jesskidden emphatically decided the discussion in our favor with his last post. Understanding the distant origins of British terminology is fine. We object, however, when you guys insist that we should adopt it because it's "correct" and our usage is wrong.

It's not just "some people" who include stouts and porters in the ale family - it's pretty much the entire beer world outside of your small island.

It appears your argument has been reduced to your narrow focus on some German top fermented beers that they don't call ales and that we should respect that. I'm not going to argue the point simply because it's an isolated and rather arcane example.

Finally, the beer world never looked to the "American Empire" to provide guidance, they simply adopted many of our terms and general classifications because they grew from several international brewing traditions and they made sense and are more useful.

 

Great Britain is not a small island. It's the 9th largest island in the world.

"Lager" is a term I think is pretty well understood and convenient to use. By contrast, "ale" can mean almost anything and I really only use it in the names of beer styles.

 

I say potato you say potato

 

I've had another look at Jesskidden's post and I don't think it emphatically showed anything.The suggestion that porters and stouts are varieties of ale would be because it involves a simple variation of the grains used.But we all know that very often a small difference can create a different article.It is worth noting that the heading still lists "Ale and Porter" . In any case the Brewers' Association used "Ale,Porter and Stout" indicating that they were still considered separate.

 

I think I've mentioned this in an earlier version (deja vu) of this discussion.

The antiquated, ignorant legislation to which you are referring is gone. We now use the same terminology that the world-minus-some-of-England uses.

Also, legal definitions often differ from accepted real world definitions.

 

I know, I've driven it top to bottom and across a number of times. I was just trying to get Marquis' goat. Apparently I got yours as well. I know you guys are sensitive about it.

 

It's far more an issue than simply "myths" being accepted as reality. These so-called myths haven't been passed down by blog posts -- anyone can start a blog. Rather, they've been passed down over the decades via numerous printed and published hard-cover books written by authors in the professional field of beer/brewing, who were commissioned to write said books. Who can blame the layman for taking it to be truthful?

Some of these so-called myths perhaps have stood for time because they can and/or do make sense. Take the "myth" of Scotland not using many hops in their beers. Why then is it that such enduring beer styles that Scotland is known for, such as Scotch Ale (Wee Heavy), are malt-forward rather than hoppy or even hop-balanced? And how about Gruit beers, which Scotland is known for, wherein bittering plants other than hops were used? And isn't it true that Scotland is north of the prime lattitudes for hop growing? And for those who believe the Earth is warming, wasn't the climate even colder back then, making it even less hop-friendly?

You see, these are beer styles recognized to be of Scottish origin that support the "myth" that Scotland didn't use a lot of hops...at least not comparitively to other Old World brewing countries of the era. Can you explain this?

As for Porter/Stout and roast barley, it is true that in 1816 a law was passed in England outlawing the use of unmalted grains, for it was malt that England taxed, and they wanted to be sure to collect that tax! Thus, roast barley (roasted, unmalted barley), could not be legally used beginning in 1816.

But, what about the ~100 years of Porter brewing pre-1816? Might not some form of roast barley have been used during that time period, perhaps, say, by Guinness in the later half of the 18th century? They had barley, and they had fire, so certainly they could have roasted up some barley in some form for use in their Porter. No?

If you could provide some references that dispute the use of roast barley before 1816, please do share. That's an honest request, as I am currently researching that for the updates to the next edition of my book.

So, perhaps you can see how that, notwithstanding Ron's and Martyn's blogs (and nobody doubts the research they have done and continue to do) there remain vast gaps and holes in beer and brewing history, and some of these "myths" at least make practical sense, and without hard evidence to dispute them, it's not really valid to call them rubbish outright.

That's my opinion, and I am open to changing it.

Regards,

Rob

 

England is not a synonym for Great Britain, nor is it a synonym for The United Kingdom (of Great Britain etc).

 

You're trying to cherry pick parts of his post to support a position that has been put to rest. You refuse to recognize that and are now simply nitpicking.

The "suggestion" that porters and stouts are varieties of ale is, in fact, a statement that they are, and that the only thing that distinguishes them is their darker color due to roasted malt.

The heading of a 1909 industrial directory of New Jersey does refer to ale and porter and the US Brewers Assoc. refers to ales, porters, and stouts, but also ties them together by the fact that they all "are fermented with top yeast at comparatively high temperatures". It's obvious to me that at the time regular ales were lighter in color and people just refered to porters and stouts separately because of that, and not because they were considered an entirely different type of beer. Regardless, our current definitions of lagers and ales were in use back then and they remain useful today. They are not a recent distinction thought up by craftbrewers like you have been repeatedly suggesting in posts on this thread and numerous others.

What is the point you are still trying to make? I've lost track. I think you need to read Jesskidden's post a third time. You seem to have missed the obvious conclusion he drew.

 

So is Weizen "ale" now?

 

Yes. Everything in U.S. "craft" that is not a barrel-aged stout is now a hoppy pale ale.

 

Everything in this post is wrong IMHO

 

Have you met many Americans? Here folks tend to state their opinion as fact and often we like to throw in a "scientific" to make it sound really facty.