Ale vs Lager

So Kolsch like Trappist is not a style but an "appellation of origin". I didn't know that, thank you.

 

I have a theory, but keep in mind that I'm on my fifth maibock.

Ale is a malt beverage historically produced mainly in northwestern Europe, especially Briton. Hops were uncommon in that region, so they used other herbs to add flavor. Blah, blah, blah... British brewers started adding more hops eventually, but I still consider them ales, regardless of the addition of hops.

Beer, or the other hand, is a malt beverage historically produced in central/northeastern Europe, and primarily flavored with hops. These were, at first, top fermenting.

Lagering has only been around for a few hundred years, and requires a certain species of yeast to ferment at the colder temperatures found in caves. It is commonly associated with beer because of common geographical origins.

My point is: it's not ale/lager, it's ale/beer.

 

It's a style as well. If you look at the Kölsch Convention the beer itself is quite quiute strictly defined: it has to be pale, filtered and hop-accented.

 

Always a pleasure to watch people use words they don't understand

 

Yeah, what the fuck ever

 

Chill man. Was just a joke. Loved your theory otherwise though.

 

Usage of words does not always of course define the meaning.You can use "English" when you mean "British" until you are blue in the face it does not redefine the word.Scotland is a constituent part of the UK.; Murray is British for example but not English. Incidentally, even if Scotland becomes independent they will remain British as Britain is a geographic term for the mainland (Great Britain is Britain plus all the surrounding islands and the British Isles is Britain and the whole of Ireland , the UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland , a political term)
A very common misuse which has gone on for decades is to call pelargoniums "geraniums"......they are labelled as such in garden centres etc yet geraniums are a different distinct species.


Back to beer! Please anybody tell me what is achieved by classifying beer in such a way that Baltic Porter and Bud Lite belong in one group whereas Imperial Russian Stout and IPA belong in another ?

 

Imperial Russian Stout is dark so it must be a Beer. IPA is pale, so it must be an Ale.

It's so simple.

 

As per the division between beer and ale, wouldn't Baltic Porters, bottom or top fermented, and Bud Light belong to the same group anyway, along with Imperial Russian Stout?

 

Patrik, it is my understanding that a British person may classify Baltic Porter, Bud Light and Imperial Russian Stout as being beers.

An American person would not classify those three beverages in that manner. Of late, the word beer has come to be a broader classification: an ale would be a beer and a lager would be a beer.

Not too long ago, in America the word beer was very much associated with a lager as was discussed by @jesskidden in a prior post: “And due to the dominance of lager beer in the US, eventually "beer" came to be understood to mean "(lager) beer" both within the industry and to the public ---“.

A few decades ago when a person went into an American bar and asked for a beer they were served a lager. In present day Pennsylvania, if a person goes into a bar and asks for a lager they will be served Yuengling Lager.

I am confident that you have an understanding that the meaning of words evolves over the dual dimensions of time and place.

Cheers!

 

Concerning the discussion about Baltic Porters I thought I would add that according to Carlsberg Denmark's website, Ny Carlsberg (run by Carl Jacobsen, the son of JC Jacobsen) brewed a top fermented porter in 1871, after Carl had visited England and learned how to brew porter there, but it wasn't successful. He tried again in 1885 but that wasn't a success either. Then in 1895 Gamle Carlsberg, run by Carl's father JC Jacobsen, brewed a bottom fermented porter which became a success. Carlsberg Denmark still brew a porter which they label a Baltic Porter which they claim originated in 1895, i.e the year in which Gamle Carlsberg started brewing bottom fermented porter.

I'm guessing that there are a myriad of other examples of various breweries, most of them gone by now, which started brewing porter at some point in the 1800s, with some brewing a top fermented version and others opting for a bottom fermenting porter, with changes from top to bottom fermentation for some and maintained top fermentation for others for as long as the beer was being produced. It's really a fascinating history the more you learn about it.

 

Hello Marquis,

Are you punting on replying to my points of inquiry to you posted last Friday with regard to the above?

 

to be fair, the English term "punt" is a wager, to place a bet. etymology is key in this discussion.
perhaps Marquis is taking a pass...

 

Ha ha. Actually, as I think about it, "punt" works quite well under both definitions in this context.
If he's "taking a pass", then I should ask if he's fumbling...

Truth is, I seek a worthwhile exchange of knowledge, information, and where appropriate and necessary, actual research references for those elements of history that are stated herein to be fact vs. "myth".

Cheers.

 

I've enjoyed a couple of Maibocks lately which go some way to proving this axiomatically.

 

Strange thing, I began a reply but your post seemed to disappear and I got an "error" page.
Early porters used brown malt entirely; it wasn't until the use of the hydrometer became routine that the malt bills gradually began to change.According to Hornsey ("A history of beer and Brewing") the hydrometer was not in use in Ireland in 1812 (and not in universal use until the middle of the 19th century)
The Malt Act (Ireland) predated 1816 but from what Guinness said about it later and its adamant refusal to countenance roasted barley until 1929 strongly suggests it was never used at all.It was generally regarded as inferior throughout the trade.
Scotch Ale is equivalent to Burton Ale. Some 19th century examples were massively hopped http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/lets-brew-wednesday-1868-younger-no-3.html
It must be remembered though that there were no style police; Scotch Ale was labelled Strong Ale in Scotland
It is though just one style from that country and not representative of Scottish brewing as a whole any more than Burton Ale is typical of English brewing.Wee Heavy was the name given to just one Scotch Ale and that only when sold in small (wee) bottles. Not a style at all, just a trade name.
Records show vast hop shipments to Scottish breweries , these were at seaports in Edinburgh and Alloa and it was in fact easier to get hops there than to many English towns.Hops were grown commercially in Scotland but as it was so much easier (and better) to ship them in that was done.
Yes, it was cooler then because we were coming out of a mini ice age and the growing season was two weeks shorter than at present.But not all Scotland is cool; as I have already mentioned the meteorological records for Edinburgh and Burton are almost identical.

 

Patrik, you probably would be interested in the story of Yuengling Porter. Yuengling Brewery is America’s oldest brewery; it was founded in 1829 by a German immigrant: David G. Yuengling. Since lager yeast was not brought to America until sometime circa 1840 the first Yuengling beers were all brewed with ale yeast. I do not know for a fact that Yuengling Porter was brewed at the opening of the brewery but I highly suspect it was since a Porter would be appealing to the US beer drinkers of that time; English style beers were very popular then. Maybe @jesskidden can provide more details here.

At some point in time Yuengling started brewing their Porter using their lager yeast strain. A Porter brewed in Pennsylvania using lager yeast was sometimes referred to as Pennsylvania Porter beers. Some of the other Pennsylvania breweries that brewed Pennsylvania Porters were/are: Stegmaier, Neuweiler's, Esslinger's, and the Valley Forge Porter brewed by Christian Schmidt.

Below is a description of Pennsylvania Porter courtesy of the HomeBrew Talk Wiki:

“Pennsylvania Porter

Pennsylvania porter, also known as East Coast porter, is the classic American porter of the 19th and early 20th centuries. It is a bottom-fermented (as opposed to the usual top-fermented porter), ester-free beer with fair-to-medium mouthfeel that will dry toward the end of the taste and may also include slight diacetyl and burnt malt components. Typically, malt and hops are balanced (O.G. 1.049-1.053; IBUs 20-25), and the hops are characteristically American. Cluster hops were the common bittering hop, although English Fuggles or Goldings hops may have been used for aroma.

It is brown/black in color with red tints or a mahogany cast in the glass.

Pennsylvania porter was a result of breweries adapting the English porter style to the arrival and popularity of lagers in the U.S. beginning in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Adjuncts such as maize, molasses, and Porterine, are not uncommon ingredients.

Remaining commerical examples of this kind of porter include Yuengling and Stegmaier.
OG: 1.048-1.061
FG: 1.010-1.023
IBU: 20-35
SRM: 20-30”

You also might enjoy reading this article entitled “American Porters: Marching to Revolutionary Drummers” that was published in Brewing Techniques magazine:http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/styles/porterstyl.html

Cheers!

Jack