Ale vs Lager

Lager beers for this guy. If I lived in the UK, ales.

 

I'm skeptical of almost every review these days unless I know the person and how to interpret what they're saying. Vocabulary for beer descriptions is so variable, it can be hard to know, and then couple that with experienced palates vs. new to the game AND the bias of liking beer simply because it was made by you or a friend and we've got a recipe for disaster. Personally, I don't think "clean" and "estery" are mutually exclusive. For example, I would describe Union Jack with both of those terms. Scaling up, you actually normally get less esters than homebrewers because almost every commercial brewer uses narrow, tall, cylindroconical fermenters. Buckets and carboys more closely replicate the dimensions of open fermentation and there is no hydrostatic pressure, so the yeast tends to produce more esters for homebrewers... Also, homebrewers "tend" to under pitch (speaking broadly here) and get even more ester production as a result. I think you should give it a shot with that yeast at 68 degrees. One of my favorite homebrew recipes that I don't think would sell very well commercially was similar to a Cali Common, but with rye and Amarillo...

90% Weyermann Pils Malt
10% Rye Malt

Mash at 149 Degrees F
OG 1.052
FG: 1.008

3 oz Amarillo at Whirlpool
3 oz Amarillo Dry Hop

Wyeast 2124 Fermented at 68 Degrees

I brewed it many years ago now, but I remember it as being super drinkable, very citrusy, and there was actually a juiciness to it.

 

I have heard from folks that I trust they have brewed with WY2124 at warm temperatures and they stated those beers were lager-like with no perceptible esters.

I understand why you state this but the fact of the matter is I am very happy with how I have brewed with WY214 in the past - fermented cool/cold. Yes, if I was looking to validate what the folks that I trust state on how this yeast produces a lager-like beer when brewed warm (e.g., 68 degrees F) I should try this in my brewery but frankly I am not too motivated to perform this exercise.

I appreciate you providing your date point(s) here. I will continue to postulate on why you have differing results from the folks I know who homebrew on this topic.

Cheers!

 

I'd postulate that lager isn't experimented with enough for anyone to have a clue. Craft breweries are apparently scared of the word lager and don't bother to put out too many. That being said, I know stout is descended from pilsners so, are stouts cold fermented/technically a lager?

 

That's probably true just because there is a scarcity of good lagers coming from craft breweries. (See below for why.)

They're not necessarily scared of the word 'lager,' but to produce a lager requires extra equipment that most start-up breweries can't afford (chilled fermentation equipment), plus many start-up breweries are anxious to get beer on tap and sold for the cash flow, and aren't willing to wait the 60 days or so for lagering to occur before they can start selling the beer.

I've never hear that stouts descended from pilsners, so I'd be curious of your source for that. I doubt that a typical yeast that ferments a stout would do its job at 50 degrees, thus you'd really need to use a lager yeast that can readily do its thing at that temp. The ingredients aren't quite a match, but a stout recipe that is brewed at 50 degrees with a lager yeast would approach being a bock (or dopplebock depending on how much malt is in the recipe).

 

I'd have to go for beer, as I love Porter and Stout.

 

Ah... You don't care for malt liquor without hops?

 

I don’t know of many breweries that have opened without having glycol for fermentation temperature control. In fact, I only personally know of 1 brewery that did so, they were a 1 bbl brewery and they could still lager beer in their walk-in. I think it’s very rare that breweries don’t have the ability to lager in the fermenters we see most frequently. Having the time is a different issue, but to your point about that, it’s also uncommon to have lagering times of 60 days with modern equipment. 2-4 weeks is much more common, not just with US craft brewers but for German lager brewers as well. Somewhat ironically, I know a LOT of brewers that under pitch yeast for their ales and as a result it takes a lot of them 4 weeks to turn over a tank... almost the same amount of time it takes to turn a lager with proper pitching rates.

 

No, I don't. Give me a Brown Beer any day.

 

I heard that somewhere and now that I look into it its totally false, sorry

 

So I see this question as a "desert island" kind of hypothetical. Having said that I consider beer to be a food, so when I think of having beer, I think of it as part of a meal. Or at least part of a snack, like with chips and dip, or chips and salsa, or maybe with pretzels or popcorn. Having said all that, I would have to pick lagers. They have the greatest versatility in food pairings constituting a kind of no brainer choice as part of a meal. In comparison, pale ales, stouts, pilsners, porters, etc. require more thought in deciding what to drink with what kind of food. Just sayin'.

 

These desert island threads are fodder for conversation but I don't see myself on an island unless I own the place or at least substantial options for prime real estate spots in which case I'll develop resorts bringing in tourists with concomitant supply channels which means I can get whatever beer I want. So in that hypothetical I'm pretty much back in the place where I am now which is to say I can get just about whatever I want. May take some travel or trading but either way my choices are not limited.