Altbier vs. Kölsch

Well, they used Früh Kölsch and Schlüssel Alt..those beers do taste very different
Thing is, after reading the whole article- I mean it's clear, the whole experiment was designed not from a beer lover's, but from a marketing standpoint, so yeah, it is basically there to enforce the importance of product prackaging, marketing, label design etc.
I, personally, am always kind of annoyed when people think about beers not as beers, but as "brands", and that is exactly what is happening there.
Noteworthy is, as well, that the test group consisted of people who have lived 30+ years in either Düsseldorf or cologne, so yeah, I'm quite convinced they never had the other city's beer before. So I would agree with the assumption that people who have lived in either city for 30+ years identify themselves as "locals" and consume either Alt or Kölsch. I mean esp. with Kölsch, drinking it is a huge part of presenting oneself as a local "Kölner" or "echte kölsche Jung"..

 

To also play Devil's Advocate, I would call both cities more traditional beer markets at least in comparison to a Berlin or even Munich where I suspect you'd find more options. I have never been to either Cologne or Dusseldorf but my impression in Bamberg, Nuremberg, and even Munich was that the locals were quite proud of their local beers. All of that is to say that I would think the locals would know when they are drinking their local, and when they aren't. Lurchus what do you think?

 

Well, the locals have to KNOW different styles before in order to know what to look for. I grew up in the cologne area, and trust me, most people at the age of the test group there never tried Alt, or any beer style other than Kölsch for that matter, so they often have no clue how to taste beer. I'd say they don't taste it, they drink/consume it.
When you are in a region where a lot of styles are seen as "native",it may sure be very different.
Well, aigan not representative, but: I remember a short video where they let a few older Bamberg locals blind taste a Helles, a Pils and a Weizen and they basically all get it right and recognize the styles. But well, I think they are WAY more used to drinking different styles of beers than locals from cologne or Düsseldorf. BTW, I personally think I personally would struggle a lot getting Helles and Pils right. Or Helles/Pils and Kölsch..

 

I was thinking about Pils and Kölsch in the context of this blind tasting -- probably much more difficult to discern than Alt and Kölsch.

If I were in Munich I could pick out the Helles and Pilsner, over here in the U.S.... might be more difficult.

 

It depends a lot on the particular examples of Kölsch and Pils though.
I mean, Mühlen or Päffgen vs Jever- I'd be pretty confident in telling them apart correctly.
But Gaffel and something like Krombacher or Warsteiner, not so much.

 

Not like I was there for long (a couple days) but in Dusseldorf I encountered loads and loads of altbier, 1-2 of the local weizen version, and a few of the mass market pilsners. Alt is everywhere you look with pils being a little bit of an afterthought.
Bamberg is/was similar, although the styles were a lot more diverse. I think Bamberg probably had a larger non-local beer presence, though. Even with Herren and Kaiserdom pils around, Jever has a pretty strong presence in Bamberg. I saw a lot of the Nuremberg and surrounding area beers, too. Can't say I saw any Kolsch in Dusseldorf, although I didn't exactly look very hard either.

 

I think it would be like trying to tell the difference between an American Blonde Ale, an American Pale Ale, and an American IPA.

Not a perfect example by any means though, because the former three are brewed using specific methods and ingredients, while the latter can virtually be brewed any way the brewer chooses. It honestly is whatever the brewer chooses to call their beer, while I feel like you'd be shot if you called your Pilsner a Kölsch in Germany.

 

Unless you're brewing in the Köln area, you can't even call a Kölsch style beer a Kölsch.

If you brew a Pils in Köln, could you call it a Kölsch? Are there ingredient requirements/restrictions?

 

I'm sure someone much more knowledgeable than me will chime in. But to clarify what I meant in my earlier post, is that typically a Pilsner will have Pils malt at the very least, a Kölsch is an ale yeast that is lagered, and Helles is generally going to be more malt forward than the Pils...etc.

While beers like Hill Farmstead's Walden and Bissell Brothers Baby Genius are labeled as American Blonde Ales, and Nightshift's Whirlpool is an Amerian Pale Ale, but they could all easily be considered "session IPAs" (and likely are in some circles)...they're all similar beers. The ONLY separation one could make is that the American IPA probably wouldn't be as low as say 20 IBUs...but either an American Blonde and/or Pale Ale could be that low and it would be appropriate.

 

Jerry, the characteristics of a Kolsch beer is defined by the Kolsch Konvention (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kölsch-Konvention)

For example, a Kolsch must have characteristics of:

· A Vollbier (A completely fermented Vollbier usually has between 3 and 5.3% alcohol by volume)

· Top fermented

· Bright

· blank, so filtered and clear

· Slim, so highly fermented, dry, little full bodied or malty

· Strongly hopped

· Can only be produced in Koln

Cheers!

 

Important point this. The people who post in this forum all have a sense of what a Kolsch should be like, where and how it is to be brewed, etc. The most that many of those tasters in the study are likely to know is that they buy drink/consume fresh beer in their local places. So even the color of the beer or the level of hops wouldn't tell them much about any differences. Beer is beer and I enjoy it or I don't.

 

For the people in the study that is correct since they could not tell the difference between them without knowing which beer they were drinking, etc.

 

My German is not good enough to tell. Was the author actually claiming that the results generalized to millions?

 

So this:



may be legitimately mistaken for this?



Ich verstehe die Welt nicht mehr

 

This description confuses me. Do they mean light bodied and hop forward? If so, why not just say that?

Or does this mean it is slightly full bodied (which seems odd to me, again why not just say a light to moderate body...etc.) and slightly malty?

 

I think whatever translation method Jack was using fucked things up. The original German says "wenig vollmundig oder malzig," which translates not to "[a] little full bodied or malty" but rather "hardly" or "not very" full bodied or malty.

 

The Kölner Brauerei Verband, which is an organization which seeks out to enforce legal actions when the Kölsch Konvention is not followed, is kind of weird as well.
When a Kölsch brewer brings a glass on the market that is different from the traditional Kölschstange, they come with their lawyers very quickly.
But with the specifications layed out in the Kölsch Konvention regarding the taste of the beer, I feel they are...well, very,very forgiving.
"Hopfenbetont"is off course the first knee slapper. Which Kölsch has a notable hop presence?
Päffgen, perhaps. But otherwhise?
Or the claim "schlank" und "hochvergoren"...I'd say Mühlen, Bischoff and Stecken all have a notable, full,malty body...
So,what does this tell you? If your beer isn't hoppy at all (see Früh) or malty t (see Malzmühle) doesn't matter to us, taste is not important for enforcing the traditional Kölsch style. But, how dare you put the beer in a different glass than a stange.
I think that goes well with the study-it's not really about taste, it's about presentation and marketing. How sad.
I mean,there was this brand "DuMont Kölsch", brewed by Sünner. I think it isn't brewed anymore. It was aimed at the younger generation, with a hip label, in clean glass bottles. I bought a sixer out of curiosity. Wasn't hoppy. At all. Far,far away from "hopfenbetont". But off course no one really cared from the Brauereiverband, I guess.

 

Ok, thanks for clearing this up as well. When I saw the description "strongly hopped" and then that it was light bodied/malty, I did a double take. I'm far from a Kölsch expert, but from the descriptions I've read, combined with somewhat fresh examples I've had the pleasure of trying, those descriptions did not match up.

Especially "strongly hopped". The one's I've had were maybe slightly hoppier than a Helles, but no way near even a Southern German Pils.

 

I'd translate "hopfenbetont" as "hop accentuated."