Am I looking at an imbalanced beer?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Capt_Quint, Jun 9, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Capt_Quint

    Capt_Quint Zealot (626) May 29, 2015 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I just picked up an imperial stout extract kit ($$!) from my LHBS that the guy there said would reach ~7% ABV with an SG of 1.088 and FG of 1.016. I told him I was looking to bump that up closer to the 10% range so he threw in a 3 lb. bag of amber DME ($$$!) – adding to the 10 lbs. of LME that originally came with the kit. According to the Brewer’s Friend recipe calculator I’m now looking at an SG of 1.097 and an FG of 1.026 with an ABV of 9.3%. (What I find odd is that using the original SG and FG, Brewer’s Friend says the original recipe will hit 9.45%)

    So here’s my (main) question (buried lede, I know): Is it OK just to add DME like that without adding hops? Is this beer going to be too sweet and imbalanced?

    Side note: Brewer’s Friend’s yeast calculator also said I’ll need to make a 4L starter (using Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale). That sounds like a huge starter but it seems this is going to be a big beer.

    I know that’s a lot of questions to cram into one post, but thanks in advance for your input.
     
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I will address you question about balance within the context of a BU:GU ratio (Bittering Units to Gravity Units.

    A ‘target’ for a Russian Imperial Stout is BU:GU = 0,74.

    http://homebrewmanual.com/media/beer-bitterness-ratio-chart-bu-gu.pdf

    So, if you desire to maintain the BU:GU ratio of the original recipe then if you add the ‘extra’ 3 lbs. of Amber DME you would indeed need to utilize more hops for the bittering addition to balance this extra malt addition.

    Cheers!
     
    SFACRKnight and dmtaylor like this.
  3. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    1.088 --> 1.016 calculates to 9.45% using the most common (but fairly inaccurate at high ABVs) formula. There's a better formula that gives 10.2%.

    1.097 --> 1.026 calculates to 9.32% using the most common formula. The better formula gives 10.9%

    Note that your two different sets of OGs/FGs have very different apparent attenuation assumptions in them. 1.088 --> 1.016 is about 82% apparent attenuation. 1.097 --> 1.026 is only about 73% apparent attenuation.

    Also, is this is a 5 gallon batch? If so, 3 lbs of extra DME should have increased your OG by about 26 points (e.g. from 1.088 to 1.114). But I don't see how you would be able to get 1.088 out of 10 lbs of LME to start with. Sounds about right for 10 lbs of DME though. What other fermentables (steeping grains, perhaps) came with the kit?
     
    inchrisin and machalel like this.
  4. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Need more information, what recipe are you thinking about?
     
  5. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Too late to edit, so adding here...
    1.088 --> 1.016 doesn't equate to only 7% ABV with any reasonable formula. If your LHBS guy told you it does, you might want to ask if there's anyone else working next time you go in.
     
  6. Capt_Quint

    Capt_Quint Zealot (626) May 29, 2015 Massachusetts
    Trader

    The 1.088/1.016 numbers are from the instructions that came with the kit - but Brewer's Friend puts it at 1.072/1.019 for 6.91 ABV. I got 1.097/1.026 when I entered the recipe including the 3 lbs of DME into Brewer's Friend. And for reference, here is the recipe:

    5 gallon batch

    10 lbs Dark LME
    3 lbs Amber DME [Not in original recipe]

    6 oz Dark Crystal
    4 oz Roasted Barley
    5 oz Chocolate

    1 oz Target (boil for 50 mins)
    1 oz Kent Goldings (boil for 10 mins)

    Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale
     
  7. epic1856

    epic1856 Initiate (0) Aug 11, 2006 California

    Alcohol by weight? That would be the only that would be close the 7% number (I think).
     
    VikeMan likes this.
  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Using a few reasonable assumptions (and a spreadsheet), I'd say you're looking at approximately...
    OG: 1.101
    FG: 1.031
    ABV: 9.2% (standard formula), 10.2% (better formula)

    IBUs (assuming 11% Alpha Acids for the Target and 7.2% for the Kent Goldings) would be about 35, which would be pretty low for an Imperial Stout with a 1.101 OG. You could safely double those hops... but do pay attention to the Alpha Acid percents, which you didn't provide.
     
  9. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,737) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I'll tackle this one: Brewers Friend recommends 361 billions cells to pitch into 5.5 gal of 1.097 wort. To figure the size of the starter you need to input date on yeast packet (accounts for viability), and method of aerating (shaken or stirred). To make it more interesting, there are two stir options . . . so until you've done a couple you really don't know the correct assumption for your equipment.

    From a practical matter a 4L starter isn't very easy, you would probably need something bigger than a 5L flask. A better approach is a stepped starter. In BF, click down to starter step #2 and you'll see how this works. Typically you could get your target with something as simple as a 1L followed by a 1.5L which is fairly easy to do. Of course you will need twice as much time (figure to week to be safe).

    You didn't ask, but a high OG beer like this begs for direct infusion of oxygen . . . otherwise those yeasties will be gasping.
     
    VikeMan likes this.
  10. scottakelly

    scottakelly Initiate (0) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    I'm not a hop lover when it comes to stouts, but I do think you need to have enough ibus to balance out the sweetness of a high gravity stout. If you are calculating at 35 IBU with your current recipe, i would say that would be too sweet to my taste.
     
    VikeMan likes this.
  11. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    OP: Sorry, but re-reading this thread, I have to ask... how many batches of homebrew have you made? (Really Big Stouts are not generally recommended for beginners.)
     
    SFACRKnight likes this.
  12. Capt_Quint

    Capt_Quint Zealot (626) May 29, 2015 Massachusetts
    Trader

    @VikeMan you got me, this is brew No. 2. I knew going in that this would be ambitious, and all this information is eye opening. I will say I had plans to do a full boil and bulk age this until at least Christmas (I apologize for giving all this information piecemeal). To answer your Alpha Acid question, the numbers are 11.5 for the Target and 5.5 for the Kent Goldings.

    @PortLargo to answer your questions, I should have specified I had not planned to the entire starter in one go. I was going to step it up. And a direct infusion of oxygen was not previously on the table, some some vigorous shaking and stirring for aeration.
     
  13. ManBearPat

    ManBearPat Pooh-Bah (1,813) Dec 2, 2014 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Society

    i made a really big stout for my second batch, 1.092 OG and any samples I've had when checking gravity, switching to secondary, etc have been incredibly tasty. I am bottling them soon and really look forward to seeing what they really taste like... around Christmas, as @Capt_Quint had mentioned.
     
  14. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,125) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Lots of great advice above. I've arrived to the party late, so I'll just add a quick bottom line:

    Yes, you should really double your hops. Any variety will work fine. If you have any favorites, use them. Use most of them for the full boil, and some in the last 0-10 minutes of the boil.

    And yes, you'll really need the big gallon-size starter for such a big gravity beer.

    Based on the yeast selection of 1084, Your final gravity won't get any lower than 1.026, and that's best case. It might turn out closer to 1.030. If you want to guarantee a drinkable beer that won't be so dang sweet, then after fermentation is about halfway done (gravity around 1.050-1.060), add a pound of cane sugar on top of everything else to feed to the yeast as "dessert". This will jack up the alcohol and will also help thin out the beer, since simple non-malt sugars are 100% fermentable as opposed to malt extract that is only roughly 65-75% fermentable by most yeast.

    Give it a good 3-4 weeks before racking it at all. You want to keep all the yeast in there and not sweep the rug out from under the beer, so to speak. Regardless of anything you might have read, autolysis doesn't kick in for a good 2.5 months or so.
     
  15. ManBearPat

    ManBearPat Pooh-Bah (1,813) Dec 2, 2014 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Society

    It was about a 3 gallon batch, 1/2 gallon of which I am aging on charred, cherry staves that had been soaking in moonshine whiskey for a year. The head has already changed color, though the flavor hasn't changed noticeably. Any idea how long (used a standard square inch ratio for beer to whiskey barrels used by brewers) it would take for the flavor to be imparted?
     
  16. bushycook

    bushycook Initiate (0) Jan 31, 2011 Virginia

    Do you like coffee? If your stout is too sweet, dry "bean" with 2-4 oz of dark roast coffee beans for 24-48 hours. That will give you some balancing bitterness.
     
  17. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    A 4L starter would be a pain in the ass. For a beer that big, I would do a smaller beer first and then use the cake for this beer. How about a dry stout with an OG around 1050? You could be drinking that in less than a month :slight_smile:
     
  18. HerbMeowing

    HerbMeowing Maven (1,271) Nov 10, 2010 Virginia
    Trader

    Yes.
    No.
     
  19. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    You can go really cold with this yeast. Do it. Go to about 60 for as long as you can and ramp it up to mid 60s after your fermentation peaks. This is indeed a big beer. If you don't stay cool you'll be drinking it next year.
     
  20. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    You don't think ~35 IBUs in a ~1.101 OG stout is out of balance?
     
    ericj551, SFACRKnight and dmtaylor like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.