Averagely Perfect Kölsch - Poll #3 - Grains/Fermentables

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Apr 21, 2020.

?

Select ONE OR MORE Grains/Fermentables

Poll closed Apr 23, 2020.
  1. Generic Two Row and/or Pale Ale Malt and/or Pilsner

    97.4%
  2. Wheat Malt

    50.0%
  3. Flaked Wheat

    7.9%
  4. Munich and/or Vienna Malt(s)

    50.0%
  5. Dextrin Malt (Cara-Foam, -Pils, -Hell)

    10.5%
  6. Other Cara/Crystal Malt(s)

    5.3%
  7. Other Adjuncts

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Other (write it in)

    2.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,957) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    -> Poll #2 <- determined that the Final Gravity target will be 1.008, with an OG target of 1.045.

    Now we'll start selecting the grains/fermentables. Pour yourself a beer...this will take a while.

    You can select more than one choice. The #1 overall choice will be automatically in. Beyond that, any other choices that get votes from at least 30% of respondents will advance to future poll(s) to determine exact combinations in/out. If less than 3 (beyond the top pick) get votes from at least 30% of respondents, three will advance to the combinations poll. There will also be polls (where necessary) to select specific varieties of the grains/fermentables that advance to the combinations poll. Want something that's not listed? Write it in.

    I recommend you think about this in terms of not only your personal preferences, but also in the context of the ABV and Final Gravity (and thus the attenuation) already selected, as well as any possible yeast strain selection that might be kicking around in your head.

    This poll will be open for 48 hours.

    If you have issues with or suggestions for methodologies used in this project, please send them via PM. Let's keep the threads themselves on topic to the question at hand and not about how you would have asked the question differently.

    The Averagely Perfect Kölsch Recipe so far...
    Target ABV: 4.8%
    OG: 1.045
    FG: 1.008
    Grains/Fermentables: TBD (This and additional polls)
     
  2. scottakelly

    scottakelly Zealot (502) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has used Wheat Malt before regarding their experience with it.
     
  3. wasatchback

    wasatchback Disciple (383) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Trader

    You mean malted wheat in this particular style?
     
  4. Dave_S

    Dave_S Initiate (69) May 18, 2017 England

    Reinheitsgebot says no...
     
    SFACRKnight likes this.
  5. wasatchback

    wasatchback Disciple (383) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Trader

    scottakelly and dmtaylor like this.
  6. Dave_S

    Dave_S Initiate (69) May 18, 2017 England

    Oh, good point. Brain fart there.
     
  7. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,905) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    100% Pils is how I have always made this. It was my understanding that this was traditional, but I am no expert. I also believe I have heard authoritative sources say wheat is used in some contemporary, geographically authentic examples. Frankly, using the Wyeast Kolsch strain with one of my cream ales* has been on my bucket list.

    *w/ flaked corn and/or flaked barley, an homage to Spotted Cow (some say the WY yeast strain is a good match, although I have my doubts; would still be tasty).
     
    chrisrennier likes this.
  8. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (222) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    I was told a loooong time ago that a Kolsch has a small portion of wheat malt. So, right or wrong, I've stuck with it. I recently brewed a Kolsch with 40% wheat that is still clear as crystal. But more typically I think about 15% seems a good figure. The rest should be pilsner, up to 100%, that's a good way to go. Not that the amounts matter here in this thread (not yet).
     
  9. scottakelly

    scottakelly Zealot (502) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    Correct, in regards to kolsch. I've had plenty of experience using it in other styles.
     
  10. scottakelly

    scottakelly Zealot (502) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    From your experience is there anything flavor-wise, etc that wheat malt brings to the table for this style?
     
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,883) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    According to K. Florian Klemp (with emphasis in bold by me):

    “A grist of pilsner malt ensures a brilliant straw-gold color (wheat has been largely phased out) and soft maltiness.”

    http://allaboutbeer.com/article/kolsch-2/

    Perhaps wheat was used in the past but now is passé?

    I have never used any wheat in brewing my Kolsch beers.

    Cheers!
     
    dmtaylor likes this.
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,883) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    I thought some of you might be interested in this video about the History of Kolsch:

     
    premierpro, Prep8611 and riptorn like this.
  13. Granitebeard

    Granitebeard Initiate (111) Aug 24, 2016 Maine

    Ima be the guy that fights the basic beer styling and say give 'er some color... Yes I voted for the c-malts, I feel we should add something a little extra even if it is not the way the Germans would do it. Also, I would not be expecting much, just a hint of something more...
     
  14. Naugled

    Naugled Defender (640) Sep 25, 2007 New York

    Hmm I’ve always used some sort of dextrin malt, but I guess wheat will do a similar thing. I voted for dex, but I can be persuaded to flip.
     
  15. wasatchback

    wasatchback Disciple (383) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Trader

    I think it can add a touch of “doughy” character and potentially help with head retention a bit. Just a bit more complex than straight pils.

    For me the three options would be

    100% Pils
    Pils with 10-15% Wheat
    Pils with 10-15% Vienna

    Munich doesn’t belong in this style. I don’t think any C malts do either. Maybe 2-3% Carahell but I don’t really see the point in that.
     
    Hanglow, MrOH, dmtaylor and 1 other person like this.
  16. OddNotion

    OddNotion Zealot (584) Nov 1, 2009 New Jersey

    Pilsner, Wheat and Vienna for me. Don't want to see any Munich, I think it would overpower this style even in a relatively small amount. No need for Cmalts either, the Wheat can add any wanted body and head retention.
     
  17. Hanglow

    Hanglow Champion (809) Feb 18, 2012 Scotland

    Pils+Wheat.

    I think Vienna is also used traditionally?
     
  18. scottakelly

    scottakelly Zealot (502) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    I actually like to use a little light Munich malt in my pale German beers. Usually around 5%. I don't think it overwhelms the beer at all.
     
  19. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (222) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Not much. Wheat is a pretty mild flavor. It might add a slightly unique bread or cracker flavor that you may or may not get from pilsner malt alone.
     
    scottakelly likes this.
  20. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (222) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    +1
     
  21. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,905) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    I truly have no idea, but Koln and Vienna are separated by 900 km. Makes me wonder.
     
  22. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (222) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    I seriously doubt it.
     
    Prep8611 likes this.
  23. wasatchback

    wasatchback Disciple (383) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Trader

    It’s interesting the Weyermann Cologne malt is a lot closer to Vienna than it is to Pils that’s for sure.
     
  24. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Disciple (393) May 2, 2006 Utah

    Given the color of Weyermann Cologne malt, and the typical color of Kölsch, it seems doubtful that this malt is used at 100% in many commercial examples.
     
  25. Hanglow

    Hanglow Champion (809) Feb 18, 2012 Scotland

    When you hear of these things called transport and trade you will blow your mind :slight_smile: And vienna is just a specification isn't it?

    Not the full amount, but when I previously researched it (as in googling, the internet doesn't lie does it?) vienna can be used as a percentage of the grainbill
     
    #25 Hanglow, Apr 23, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
  26. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,369) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Who didn't vote for pils?
     
  27. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,905) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    I pretty sure the caravan from Koln only made it to Pilsen.
     
    Hanglow and riptorn like this.
  28. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,905) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    @Hanglow I admit to having a poorly educated and biased opinion of the style, based only on my homebrew efforts and the very few commercial American beers that call themselves Kolsch (or maybe Kolsch-style?).

    @dmtaylor I just looked up one of those commercial examples that I enjoyed, New Glarus Kid Kolsch, released last summer, and sure enough, they say they used wheat malt.

    The BJCP says
    Each Köln brewery produces a beer of different character, and each interprets the Kölsch Konvention slightly differently. Allow for a range of variation within the style when judging.
    I am sure I could be quite happy with a Kolsch made with Pils, Vienna, and wheat malts. In the spirit of doing something different, my vote has been changed.​
     
    Hanglow likes this.
  29. Hanglow

    Hanglow Champion (809) Feb 18, 2012 Scotland

    It's all good, I just searched again as I was unsure what is the current grists that are used and it seems all pils or pils/wheat malt or pils and vienna are the generally used grists. Kunze mentions pils/wheat and pils/vienna in his suggested grainbills.

    I voted for pils and wheat malt as that is what I have available :slight_smile: But am more than interested in trying whatever gets voted for


    Also went down a kolsch history rabbit hole, not much on the grist but the hopping info is interesting .The hopping of the pre WW2 kolsch beer looks far more interesting than the current accepted practice . They use a longer boil, first wort hops, boil hops at a couple of different times whirlpool hops and even a dry hop/hop tea

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=.de&u=https://www.koelner-brauerei-verband.de/historie/historie/wie-alles-begann-die-entwicklung-des-koelschbieres.html&prev=search

    And Ron has a couple of interesting posts on older kolsch

    https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-bitter-was-early-kolsch.html
    https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2014/10/german-brewing-in-1966-top-fermenting.html



    .
     
  30. Naugled

    Naugled Defender (640) Sep 25, 2007 New York

    I love it.. dead tie, 19 for Wheat malt, 19 for Vienna/Munich

    Hey you Flaked Wheat and Dextrin voters, it's time to jump over to Wheat Malt. :slight_smile:
     
    wasatchback likes this.
  31. wasatchback

    wasatchback Disciple (383) Jan 12, 2014 Tajikistan
    Trader

    You wonder if they had to make them that bitter to prevent them from becoming sour...
     
  32. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,957) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Alrighty. Per the criteria...

    Generic Two Row and/or Pale Ale Malt and/or Pilsner are IN.
    Wheat Malt is possibly in.
    Munich and/or Vienna Malt(s) are possibly in.
    Dextrin Malt (Cara-Foam, -Pils, -Hell) is possibly in.

    Next up: Base Malt(s) selection