Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #20 - Brett Timing

So this poll is entitled “Brett Timing” with the intention to poll folks on when they think the best time is to add WLP644 to the fermenting wort.

Supergenius posted: “So has anyone ever tried pitching brett with this method? I thought some of you out there had some experience with it.”

It has been reported via genetic testing that WLP644 is not Brett:

“Today (12/11/14) An update on the Microbial ID and Strain Typing was posted by Lance, the results for the sample of WLP644 Trois that were sent to the independent lab read “Saccharomyces cerevisiae”.

Above quote from: http://embracethefunk.com/2014/12/11/brettanomyces/

Determining an ‘optimum’ time to pitch Brett is likely a tricky task and then if you add the aspect that WLP644 is not Brett adds an additional twist.

A few folks posted comments like: “Changed my vote to this write-in for a co-pitch.”

I recognize that via previous polling that co-pitching was not selected but IMO performing a co-pitch is the most prudent course of action.

Cheers!

 

If it is anything like the previous 2 polls I predict it will be a runoff between the Average and the one that gets the most votes (mode) so right now: 1.033 (mode) and around 1.024 (eyeballed average).

Those voting around 1.012 mark I suggest you switch your vote to 1.012 or be left out completely. Of course I could be completely wrong on the poll methodology.

 

I jumped down to 1.012 to try to get more weight on a lower FG. 1.033 is just too high. I want the Dupont yeast to do its thing before the Brett starts messing with it.

 

Perhaps, perhaps not. Decisions ought to be based on a hypothesis. What are the probable implications of the decision? More Brett character and less 3724 character? Some may want that. I sort of do, I think, as I have no 644 experience and figure this beer will get me some. I'm not sure when 3724's expression of it's fermentation profile begins to peak, but probably before it is fully attenuated, based on my own (limited) experience.

 

How does one obtain Brett character by pitching Saccharomyces cerevisiae (WLP644)?

Cheers!

 

It's been sold as Brett since it came out, just recently (Dec 2014) it was discovered that it is not brett but Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Basically just treat it like a yeast that acts like Brett.

http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp644-brettanomyces-bruxellensis-trois

 

White labs hasn't officially come out and said this is or isn't brett.
also changed my vote after getting feedback from a local comp saying my copitched BBT DuPont saison was decidedly lacking in saison phenols and esters. going with 1.012. Gotta get my pepper on.

 

I think @JackHorzempa's point that 644 isn't brett is important here and the reason why I have been putting brett in quotes. I also think that it might explain my results using it after fermentation was finished.

To recap, I did a basic rye saison with Belle Saison. One keg was left "plain", one keg got a pitch of 644. After 3 months at ~68 degrees, there is nothing I would call BRETT and that is under pressure which supposedly magnifies the brettness. In fact, there is very little difference between kegs even though they sat next to each other the whole time. I slightly prefer the 644 keg, but it is a very subtle difference. We know that 644 as a primary strain gives a massive tropical fruit bomb, I have not seen anyone who used it as a secondary strain like 645.

 

The link you provided states:

“WLP644 Brettanomyces bruxellensis Trois

This Belgian strain, used traditionally for 100% Brettanomyces fermentations, produces a slightly tart beer with delicate characteristics of mango and pineapple. Can also be used to produce effervescence when bottle-conditioning.”

There is no mention of funkly flavors that I personally associate with “Brett character”: flavors like barnyard, horse blanket, sweaty leather, wet hay, etc.

It will be interesting to see if WLP644 will produce flavors classically associated with the descriptor of “Brett character”.

Cheers!

 

From White Labs

"This Belgian strain, used traditionally for 100% Brettanomyces fermentations, produces a slightly tart beer with delicate characteristics of mango and pineapple. Can also be used to produce effervescence when bottle-conditioning."

Most people seem to use this in a nonstandard way, i.e. 100% Brett. Can we treat it the same as other bretts?

 

Of course I could be completely wrong on the poll methodology.
I jumped down to 1.012 to try to get more weight on a lower FG.

In a way you're getting a bell curve - - - albeit inverted. I believe this is called a Well Curve, high on the ends and skinny in the middle. Middle ground is disappearing; our society is buying hugh TVs or tiny tablets, the dollar store or the boutique . . . go extremist or go home. Who'd a thought this would apply to a Saison!

So this is a case where the mean could be the least representative result of the group. Knowing VikeMan's penchant for not ignoring the mean this must be tearing him up . I wonder if back in the 18th century Monsieur DuPont lamented to the Mademoiselle that his market demanded bi-modal production (mon amour, la difficulté de la brasserie . . . DEUX MODES pour les paysans!) ?

 

I think what we have all come to expect from this yeast is fruity and tropical. However I do think that until we get a yea or nay from WLP we shouldn't be making assumptions. I get that an outside source used a few indicators to determine it isn't brett, but couldn't it be as likely that if a sacc yeast can look and act like brett, can't a brett strain act like sacc? If you ever get a chance try nightmare on brett from crooked stave. I promise you that you won't get brett from it. WWBB also had zero "brett" character. Until WLP comes back with definitive evidence one way or the other I think we are treading thin ice by making declarations like "this is/isn't brett".
/endrant

 

Omega yeast is going with it isn't brett. YMMV

http://www.omegayeast.com/?portfolio=14045-2

 

“BRETTANOMYCES BLEND #1

WHERE DA FUNK?

OYL-210

A blend of a mild Brettanomyces isolate from a Colorado brewery known for its Brett beers and two strains formerly classified as Brettanomyces but since found to be Saccharomyces. This blend produces huge tropical fruit aromas during fermentation that fade somewhat during conditioning. Has a wide temperature range and ferments very dry, leaving little body. Consider adding flaked oats if additional body is desired. This blend will not produce significant “funk” or acid, even with extended aging. The blend pairs well with fruity aroma hops to make a unique pale ale.”

A Pale Ale sounds like a good beer to use WLP644.

Cheers!

 

To get back on track. If you voted for something other than 1.033 or 1.012 I suggest you hop on the bandwagon and join one of the two.

 

Jack, I've never used this yeast and I am going with how it has been billed. When the biologist in me hears that it is not a true Brett species, I shrug my shoulders because I can think of at least a couple plausible explanations why a non-Brett yeast could show Brett character (I'm thinking of differences in gene expression among sacch strains and lateral gene transfer; better biologists may have better answers; these are things that were one time in my field, but by no means up my alley). The bottom line is if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and tastes like a duck, well, let's just call it a duck. Or in this case, maybe a funky yeast strain.

 

I'd rather keep things interesting for @VikeMan Sticking with the safe middle (1.024)

 

Peter,

Nothing I have read from White Labs equate WLP644 with "funky".

I look forward to hearing your impressions on how your personal Wyeast 3724/WLP644 beer turns out.

Cheers!

Jack

 

Sorry. To me, funky just means dances to the beat of a different drummer, you know, like dancin and singin and movin to the groovin? As a term, it hasnot been very helpful to my growth as a beer advocate. I probably should have avoided it. I guess to some, it means horseblanket or licking a mouse or something else that doesn't work for me. WLP644 seems to have the fruity characters that people sometimes get from Brett. Or so I have read. Does that clarify my meaning?

 

As I posted above: "There is no mention of funkly flavors that I personally associate with “Brett character”: flavors like barnyard, horse blanket, sweaty leather, wet hay, etc."

The beers that I have homebrewed using Brett had the flavors I detailed above.

Cheers!