Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #3 - Yeast Timing

FWIW it doesn't look like Brett @ bottling is going to win so it probably a moot point.

 

So when we start polling for strains can brett brux trois be used as our sacc strain?

 

I don't get it. What's this all about? Can I have a personal re-hash of all 72 bzillion previous polls and their significance/implications/ramifications thereof? With pictures and diagrams?

 

@MrOH I agree on all points. Looks like I might have confused the situation a little. Yes, a good Saison can be made with only Sacc. Personally I prefer them with Brett and believe it is more to style (it is also no secret that I can't stand a very popular/less finicky yeast used to make Saisons). I also prefer the character of Brett at bottling as opposed to in secondary. Thus my voting. At this point the recipe has been voted for Sacc with Brett added at some point (determined by this poll) after the initial pitching of the Sacc. My concern was that although I prefer Brett at bottling and voted as such, that this could potentially cause issues for some brewers who are not as experienced in these things creating bottle bombs by adding Brett to a beer that is not fully fermented and sticking it into standard (and reused) bottles.

I think some of the breakdown here might also be coming from our understanding of how these threads work. I am looking at them as the collective thought of the whole to construct a recipe for a said style that will be the best damn IPA/A.Stout/Saison you've ever tasted (as the IPA is touted to be). This is different than designing a recipe for a fairly good IPA/A.Stout/Sasion that is accessible to brewers of all degree of abilities. Inevitably if we as a whole created the best damn Saison you've ever tasted then anyone who comes to the site will want to make it, and there is the possiblilty of the bottle bombs if bottling with Brett was chosen (or if they don't let the Brett finish up in secondary for that matter).

Really not trying to get into a back and forth, hopefully this clears up any miscommunication. After reading back through our previous responses, I didn't see where I was disagreeing with you, so hopefully this clears it up.

 

I think people need to keep in mind, the recipes will not end up being EVERYTHING you want in a beer, they have never been that. What they have been, is a recipe that is sourced by others, based on their own findings, and wants/needs, or to just troll, even.

However, no one is forced to brew these beers. I'd be willing to bet.. with all the banter from some, that they have NEVER brewed the IPA or the Stout. Not saying they won't brew the Saison, but no one is forcing someone to use any of the recipe, or all of the recipe.

I think new brewers to AG, or extract even, could take some notes of what people like and don't like, and at the end, can look at the grist and hopping and have a pretty good ground floor recipe for a great saison. Sacch or Brett, included.

Our IPA recipe, would be fantastic with Brett Brux Trois in it, I bet.. We didn't vote to use Brett in it.. ( or not brett, whichever they say it is).

Regardless, the recipes have always had twist and turns that could be left out. Such as the toasted oats in the last recipe. I felt they didn't do shit early on. With about 2 gallons left in the keg, I can say the oats really lended a caramel toasted note to the beer with some age and the hops falling off.

Just roll with it, folks.

 

You've got my interest peaked now. I have had 3726 finish at 1.008 (1.040 OG) and 1.005 (1.040 OG) and 1.004 (1.050 OG), as well as 1.011 when used in the APA Stout sans roasted malts. I have had 3724 stop at 1.008 once. All my Saisons are lower OG. What kinds of FG have you had with 3726?

 

I am going to be pretty pissed if/when people vote for 3711 because it is "easy"

 

I think the IPA would be awesome with 644, might have to try it.

I just re-tapped one of my partial kegs of the stout, I still like the beer, but I don't think toasting the oats did anything for that beer.

 

I thought the point of these threads was to see what kind of beer the general wisdom would create as a measure of how much you should follow the things everyone says you should do.

 

Looking back on my notes, I should've kept better notes. The only things Brewtoad carried over from Hopville (outside of the software expectations) were the brewdates. 3726 was the only yeast that I personally recall not going as low as hoped. That being said, I recall it still always ended up below 1.010, and I enjoyed the finished results. Sorry, I've depended too much on memory for this. It served me well for my career (cook turned cheesemonger. Ask me about cheese!!), and now I rely on it, as taste memory (and the ability to express it) counts for more in my field than documentation. I also think that 3726 throws off more bubblegum than I prefer, but that it fades in time, and that 3725 has a weird grape-soda ester that I don't like at all. 3724 us dope for a "classic" saison (earthy, fruity, spicy) if you have the patience, and 3711 is good if you're looking to do something with a lot of late hops or spicing, but otherwise falls flat. Belle Saison is like a more boring, dry version of 3711. I really dig the Mangrove Jack's Belgian Ale as a saison yeast, it has a nice melon ester to it, otherwise, somewhere between 3711 and 3724. Haven't tried wlp566 or wlp585, but I've heard good things. Wlp565 was very similar to 3724 to me, maybe a bit less expressive. Hopefully, this can be referred to in later threads...

So far as the bottling with Brett, I'm in agreement. I just think that Brett at any point for someone who doesn't know how to ensure a completed fermentation is asking for trouble, and that adding it at bottling is the best way to minimize any hazards. If you can't expect someone to ensure that a sacc fermentation is complete before bottling with brett, how can you expect them to ensure the same with a mixed culture fermentation?

I think we're arguing the same point from different angles. I'm gonna RDWHAHB.

 

And that's when you lie and say you use it but really roll with DuPont...

 

MrOH posted: “So far as the bottling with Brett, I'm in agreement. I just think that Brett at any point for someone who doesn't know how to ensure a completed fermentation is asking for trouble, and that adding it at bottling is the best way to minimize any hazards. If you can't expect someone to ensure that a sacc fermentation is complete before bottling with brett, how can you expect them to ensure the same with a mixed culture fermentation?”

I have brewed with Brett twice where I co-pitched the Brett. I will readily confess that on both of those batches I was concerned about the potential for bottle bombs and I purposefully monitored both of those batches looking for signs of overcarbonation. I usually wait at least two week before opening the first bottle but for those batches I actually opened the first bottle sooner to make sure the bottles were not overcarbonating. I would then make sure to open a bottle periodically (e.g., once a week) to make sure that everything was OK. Both of those batches turned out fine with no bottle bombs but I figured an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I should mention that I let the beers sit in the primary fermenter on both of those batches for quite some time, over 4 weeks.

Cheers!

 

I'm doing just that the weekend of the 17th-18th! Really looking forward to it.

 

I would probably do a split batch just to see what happens, but I would still be pissed about the 3711

 

I kind of think it would be safer/easier for a less experienced brewer to succeed with a mixed fermentation (sach/Brett) and using table sugar to prime rather than a doing sach fermentation, brewing to/predicting the correct FG, and relying on Brett to "prime" via consuming the remaining fermentables (keggers notwithstanding). Are you thinking about it from a different angle?

 

My angle is that after a proper fermentation with a saison strain, there isn't enough sugar left for brett to produce an appreciable amount of CO2. Therefore, wait, and add brett at packaging. Folks who keg instead of bottle can keg condition the beer.
For instance, I finally bottled this today: https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/hogfather-2
FG was 1.001. Granted, it hung out for quite a bit more than I planned on, but a pellicle never developed in either the primary or the secondary, so I doubt there was anything besides the sacc fermenting in there. Note that there is 9% crystal in that recipe. Added a vial of Brett C to the bottling bucket, primed for 2.8 volumes, and by next christmas, I should have a showstopper. Anyhow you look at it, patience is a virtue with a saison.

 

I see where we are thinking about things differently.

You're saying: anticipate a sach-only fermentation gets your FG close to 1.000, then add Brett and priming sugar as you normally would at bottling. With FG ~1.000, the priming results are predictable.

I'm saying: a mixed fermentation *should be* easier just because there is a better chance of reaching an FG closer to 1.000 (see jbakajust1's FG's above - 1.004, 1.005, 1.008, etc.) Sure, at FG ~1.000, it's easy to add the correct amount of priming sugar. But at FG ~1.008, I wouldn't feel expect Brett to prime to the desired level of co2, then stop eating sugars all of a sudden.

 

Yep, I see your point of view as well. We'll just agree to disagree.

 

I dunno, the averagely perfect IPA came out friggin' awesome. And that was without taking into account my less than favorable water chemistry (too much CaCO3). I was less enthralled with the stout, but oddly I don't have any of them left either.