BAD / GOOD beer traders lists not updated?

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by NiceBeerCans, Nov 24, 2014.

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  1. NiceBeerCans

    NiceBeerCans Initiate (0) Mar 16, 2013 New York

    Been reading recent threads on the Beer Trading Talk & Help, especially the recent Bad Trader Alerts threads. Wondering about the following:

    1. Why are the bad traders on these threads not being added to the BAD beer traders list (under Trading), even after the threads are closed without beer being delivered or even after the member was permabanned by Todd.

    2. Why do you list some members on both lists just because they have a lot of good trades but cited for bad trade(s).

    I think updating the lists is important since most BA members will not read every Bad Trader Alert threads. Do not reward members by placing them on GOOD beer traders list when they have bad trades, which is why they are also on the BAD traders list too. Most people won't notice that fact and trust the trader as being special. My two cents. Thanks.
     
  2. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,509) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    1) They do update, but they're based on using the feedback system, recent activity, and don't include users who've been banned; that would be pointless as you're not going to be trading with banned users.

    2) I've updated the lists. Good = the most active users with 100% reputation, ordered by number of good trades. Bad = the most active users with bad trades, ordered by number of bad trades. But at the end of the day you should be making a call based on the beer trader's overall profile/feedback.
     
  3. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,509) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    But here's a question, and part of the thinking before the above change: If a BA who's essentially a good trader with numerous good trades messes up once, why should they be penalized so harshly? Maybe it was a bad trade from their early days and they've learned since?

    Which is why we allowed the feedback system and reputation form the lists.

    I'm going to take another look at the lists and probably make a few more adjustments.
     
  4. NiceBeerCans

    NiceBeerCans Initiate (0) Mar 16, 2013 New York

    Unfortunately, traders with numerous good trades feel that they can absorb a bad trade feedback, especially since it may be listed under other pages (because they have so many trade feedbacks). How about listing the bad feedback first so it shows up on the first page? This way they would try to work (extra hard) with the other trading partner to get it fixed/amended.
     
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  5. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,509) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    It's not necessarily unfortunate. In many cases it shows that they've learned. Listing bad feedback first in these cases only serves to rub a past mistake in the faces of a lot of traders who aren't really bad. And their bad trade count is already listed in their stats for those who care.

    I think a different approach the lists is required. One based on overall reputation.
     
  6. NiceBeerCans

    NiceBeerCans Initiate (0) Mar 16, 2013 New York

    OK. Is this why BarofGold is now off the BAD traders list and now on the Good traders list? BarofGold is the only one with less than 100% reputation. The bad trade was this year, March 17th. Does he really deserve to be on the GOOD beer trader list? If you want to take him off the BAD traders list because of his high number of good trades, I might see your point. However, don't endorse him by putting him on the GOOD traders list. Aespi clearly stated to "Avoid this one" and gave a "bad trade". Let BarofGold be on neither list.
     
  7. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,509) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    You're basically saying that if a BA gets one bad trade, but has dozens or even hundreds of good trades, they can never be considered a good trader. This doesn't work for me.
     
  8. JayORear

    JayORear Meyvn (1,378) Feb 22, 2012 Pennsylvania
    Society Trader

    With all due respect, I don't think anyone should make a decision about trading based only on the Good/Bad lists, which are sort of falsely objective about a subjective process. Read the actual trade feedback, contact their former trade partners, and look up their threads. When I receive responses to an ISO, I always go and look at the threads they've started or contributed to. They can say a lot about the kind of person they are.
     
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  9. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,509) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Yep. Basically what I said earlier.
    The lists are just the surface. BAs should be digging deeper before trading.
     
  10. NiceBeerCans

    NiceBeerCans Initiate (0) Mar 16, 2013 New York

    No, but I consider BA members who are on this list to be like they are in the Hall of Fame. Why not stick to the 100% reputation? BarofGold could have contacted Aespi, who has way less trades but 100% reputation, to make things right. BarofGold will and still does get trading partners, so no problem for him. Just not a sterling reputation like the others in the "Hall of Fame". You're not punishing BarofGold by just not putting him on the special list.
     
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  11. NiceBeerCans

    NiceBeerCans Initiate (0) Mar 16, 2013 New York

    I certainly agree with both of your statements. However, I hope you can see my point I'm making to you.
     
  12. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,509) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    I removed our back and forth over tagging, and made a final change for now ...
    • Bad = Has under 90% rep.
    • Good = 100% rep.
    Which is much better than before, and allows BAs to work towards getting off the Bad list.
     
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  13. NiceBeerCans

    NiceBeerCans Initiate (0) Mar 16, 2013 New York

    Sounds good and fair to me. Glad we could hash out our thoughts together. Think BA's (especially members new to trading) will like the new look. Thank you Todd.
     
    F2brewers likes this.
  14. dheldman

    dheldman Zealot (545) Feb 7, 2011 Minnesota

    As someone who has had to give a "bad" rating I'm not ok with letting people just work past it. If a trade is resolved the trader can go back and edit the trade feedback from "bad" to "ok" or "good" for that matter. In contrast, if a user has a bad trade under their belt that is not resolved there should be consequences. In my case I sent beer and received no beer in return. This is stealing and stealing is not something that should be worked off through other good trades. Instead I would like to see a situations where the user has to go back and make the original trade right before they can more on to a new trade. Sort of like how Paypal manages disputes. If both parties can reach a conclusion there is no bad blood and everyone moves on with there lives. If a conclusion is not met the person can't trade any longer. Seems fair to me.
     
  15. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,509) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Sounds unrealistic to me. Mistakes happen, things don't work out, people give unfounded bad feedback, and sometimes people learn their lesson and become a better beer trader. Bad feedback isn't always about someone getting ripped off either.
     
  16. dheldman

    dheldman Zealot (545) Feb 7, 2011 Minnesota

    Ok, but what about those trades where someone did get ripped off? Shouldn't we have a way to deal with those instances?
     
  17. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,509) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    We do. You start a bad trader thread and give them a chance to defend themselves or give them bad feedback. And mods may get involved with bad trader threads based on the situation.
     
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  18. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,509) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Highbrow, Yohann and blue-dream like this.
  19. BarofGold

    BarofGold Initiate (0) Oct 10, 2013 Vermont
    Deactivated

    I just happened across this forum, had no idea I was the topic of conversation.
    Felt like I should put in my 2 cents as my name and situation was being discussed.

    I think your solution to this question/issue looks good Todd, I think the good traders list should include 100% good completion along with a high rate of trades. I dont by any means think I should have been added to the bad traders list, and Im glad this did not happen. For all BA'ers it is up to us to converse with each other and dig deeper into all situations and make judgements based off of that. With nearly 100 trades completed and 1 bad posting I do feel I am still a good trader and do what I can to keep that reputation.

    Cheers
     
  20. NiceBeerCans

    NiceBeerCans Initiate (0) Mar 16, 2013 New York

    OK, I'll bite. Did you try to make things right with @Aespi after his bad trade posting? I'm glad you agree with me that GOOD traders list should only be for 100% reputation. Nothing personal with me, I just wondered why you were on both lists before this thread (being on the BAD and GOOD lists at the same time). I like Todd's current "final" change and hope it becomes permanent. I'd like to see you work things out with Aespi and have him change his posting from bad to okay/good. Then you really backed up what you wrote above and I'd have no problem with you being added to the GOOD traders list.
     
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  21. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    If you click the "reply" button the person you respond to gets an alert. If you don't, they may never know you've replied to them.
     
  22. NiceBeerCans

    NiceBeerCans Initiate (0) Mar 16, 2013 New York

    Thanks. Assumed he would watch this thread. Tagging @BarofGold See above post.
     
  23. dheldman

    dheldman Zealot (545) Feb 7, 2011 Minnesota

    Thank you!
     
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  24. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2010 Iowa

    BarofGold now has his very own thread. Since he's again actively trading it would be nice to see him respond to the tags & explain what he's done to make it right with the numerous people he's cheated here & elsewhere.

    below is the link to an interesting read whicht enables us to (borrowing BarofGold's own words): "...dig deeper into all situations and make judgements based off of that."
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/bad-trader-barofgold.240691/
     
  25. Highbrow

    Highbrow Devotee (445) Jan 7, 2011 California
    Trader

    great discussion. been around but only more recently tried my luck at trading. sorry this is long winded but an experience i'd share is the first time i did contemplate trading, i was eager for something just released, found an FT offer & began the haggling process.

    the individual listed (2) bottles of the item. well into the process & nailing down final details he stated he returned to his room & found that his roommate opened & drunk 1 of the bottles. i didn't get the true relevance of the mention immediately, but what i did get was a sudden epiphany come tumbling down on me, which was; WTF was i doing anyway? like i didn't have enough beers that i find decent enough to keep me going & needed to engage in shit with college dorm kids that probably should be buying books instead of beer??? i realized my eagerness had overridden basic commonsense.

    since i was fresh at it i contacted Todd with general parameters asking was i gonna get a negative mark if i opted out the trade. nothing had been set in stone but i wasn't sure if once you engaged you could get dinged for not working something out & wished to be certain.

    the real twist here was during our haggling he was saying he had to think things over & felt like he was giving up a lot for the choice of 1 or the other items i offered. at the end when the deal went south it became clear he was under the impression i was trying to score BOTH of his bottles with (1) bottle of the choices i offered. the whole time i was certain we were discussing (1) of his bottles. however, the whole roommate/ my dog ate it thing was enough to detour my willingness to risk anything. maybe 4-6 months later i looked the guy up to see how he'd been doing cause he had thrown up a large number FT/ISO at the time we engaged. to no real surprise his membership was deactivated. not sure why but figured it's likely his dog ate his homework again or something similar.

    the morals are :

    CLEAR COMMUNICATION IS KEY. there is no such thing as too much. you'll likely find out whether your partner is flaky or not in the process too.

    BE SENSIBLE/PRACTICAL. i never got to try that beer but came away a lot wiser. find out "who" you are trading with as best you can before any shipping agreements. 2¢
     
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