Bad Trader: Zacmac26

Discussion in 'Bad Traders' started by SaucerfulOfSecrets, Sep 6, 2018.

  1. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,414) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Premium Trader

    This was also my understanding. Also paging @dmbforever.
    Just to clarify, the bottles never left the shipping location where @SaucerfulOfSecrets dropped them off at - he wa able to get them back from the location. So @Zacmac26 never had the bottles.
  2. eppie82

    eppie82 Meyvn (1,057) Apr 19, 2015 Illinois

    Ahhh, then I misunderstood that part. Thank you for pointing that out. Then my comment about 'bad trader' having to pay for the OPs shipping may not even be applicable.
    brutalfarce and FBarber like this.
  3. maximum12

    maximum12 Poo-Bah (3,856) Jan 21, 2008 Minnesota

    You're making a lot of assumptions that are hurting whatever minor case you may have had.

    A humble suggestion: contact a mod & have this whole thread nuked. Nothing about this is making you look good, & after reading it, I'd still happily trade with @Zacmac26.
  4. John_M

    John_M Moderator (6,171) Oct 25, 2003 Oregon

    To be fair to everyone who has contributed to this thread, I plan to make a final post concerning my impression of what transpired here, and will then allow some final comments before shutting this one down. My feeling is that there are probably some valuable lessons to be learned from what took place in this "non trade," and so I'll eventually close the thread without deleting it. I'm also going to ask @dmbforever to weigh in on this as well before closing it down (as I value his opinion, and he typically is more level headed than I am).

    To be perfectly candid, the original post raised a few red flags for me right from the start. The OP wasn't out any beer (fortunately, he was able to grab his box from the shipper before it was sent off), it didn't sound as if he went out of his way to obtain the trade beers he planned to send to the "BT," and it wasn't as if the BT had broken off communication with him. At least at this point, I don't have any evidence or reason to believe that the BT purposely attempted to deceive the OP about the loss of the FO, just so he could obtain a better price/trade from someone else. When the BT came on this thread and candidly confirmed the OP's story, expressed remorse and indicated he had offered to send the OP some beer to try to make up for any inconvenience he had experienced, that went a long way towards convincing me that there likely shouldn't have been a BT thread over this incident. Subsequent posts from the OP have only further cemented my impression. Frankly, I think this is something the OP and BT should have tried to work out between themselves (and granted, I am taking the BT's word for it that the FO bottle was not something he would likely be able to easily replace). If the OP was still dissatisfied with the outcome, then it would make sense to put the BT on his personal "do not trade with" list. Instead, it sounds like he decided to start a BT thread to publicly shame the BT, and to try to ruin his reputation in the BA community.

    Subsequent and recent ports from the OP have not been very reassuring. If I understand him correctly, he feels he's entitled to the benefit of the bargain he made with the BT, and no matter what the cost to the BT, the BT should do whatever it takes to procure that missing bottle of FO. Personally, I'm continuing to have a difficult time understanding that perspective. My own personal experience has shown me time and time again that despite my best of intentions at times, or how careful I am, sometimes "shit happens." Sure, maybe the OP should have been more careful, or exercised a higher degree of caution (when storing the FO), but I'm not sure how that equates to an obligation to find the OP another bottle of FO, no matter what the cost/expense. In other words, I'm not sure the "penalty" the OP wants to exact fits the crime in this case.

    As others have suggested, I can certainly see how what transpired could warrant negative or neutral feedback on the part of the OP. However, at least in retrospect, I don't believe what took place in this instance justifies the start of a BT thread.

    As always, just my two cents...
    #44 John_M, Sep 7, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
    taplebr, Angerhaus, Vidblain and 15 others like this.
  5. LambicPentameter

    LambicPentameter Poo-Bah (1,719) Aug 29, 2012 Nebraska
    Premium Trader

    Him offering Ground State doesn't sound like balking at that idea to me. I realize Ground State and FO aren't exactly the same, but they are pretty close. Not that you should be obligated to take that swap out--but it does speak to OP's mindset and intentions.

    Others have said it already, but I find your position on this matter to involve unreasonable expectations as to how much one side of a trade is owed after the initial agreement is made. Yes, a deal is a deal, but in my mind that simply means that both parties have agreed to complete the specified trade in good faith to the best of their ability. Not that the trade must be completed at any cost whatsoever.

    Seems unfair to me that @Zacmac26 may have to live with neutral feedback and this thread when it seems like he did everything we would expect a Good Trader to do except keep his bottles under lock and key until shipping them.

    For what it's worth, I think you'd be best off letting the trade die by skipping over leaving feedback. Part of being a good trader is showing some understanding--especially in a situation where the only real harm you've suffered is the disappointment of not completing the trade and the hassle of having to get your box back before it shipped out.
  6. dmbforever

    dmbforever Moderator (731) May 8, 2013 Wisconsin
    Premium Trader

    Good afternoon-

    In reading this over and taking everyone's comments/feedback into are my thoughts as both a trader & moderator.

    (1) when you agree to a trade, make sure the bottles are *secured* in your possession. This includes from the time the trade is accepted, boxed up, and tracking sent to your trade partner. I realize things can happen...BUT....if you have a bachelor party where drinks are consumed (typically)....make sure your bottle or bottles that you agreed to trade are NOT available for someone to drink accidentally or break. That seems like the biggest *mistake* here and is NOT the first time someone has used that as a reason for not fulfilling a trade (bottle got drank).

    (2) This thread is a good learning tool for all traders. My suggestion would be to *edit* the thread title appropriately and move to the trading forum and lock-up. Deleting this doesn't make traders aware of situations like this that they can learn from.

    (3) As far as feedback.... that is the decision of the traders. They can certainly work that out amongst themselves to NOT leave any for each other and let it purge. If one leaves feedback and the other does not....the person who does not leave feedback will be nudged by a moderator to complete their feedback before the purge.

    My envision for feedback in this situation if left:
    OP gets positive, trader in question gets nuetral. This of course, if they can not complete the trade or alter the original trade.


    This sound good to you?
  7. John_M

    John_M Moderator (6,171) Oct 25, 2003 Oregon

    Yes. There are definitely some valuable lessons to be learned from this experience, so I would not recommend deleting it either.
  8. Beer_Economicus

    Beer_Economicus Devotee (402) Apr 8, 2017 Indiana

    In the past it was stated that - at least positive feedback - could not be left if a trade was not competed. This came up with someone that got banned who only had like 3 trades. The first was something like "Did not even exchange bottles. Super cool guy!"

    Am I misunderstanding the rules/regulations?

    If we allow (positive) feedback when no bottles were exchanged, seems like we are staying that it is OK in some instances, but on a case by case basis, which still creates a loop hole. Seems like a bad idea.

    Also, it's not clear to me that I would want to leave "positive" feedback if I was the "BT" in question. From anyone's perspective, no one seems to think the OP was an angel in his response. Is it absolute that "positive" feedback would be required?
    Mikexw, maximum12 and FBarber like this.
  9. flat_lander

    flat_lander Devotee (409) May 11, 2016 Illinois
    Premium Trader

    I did not know this. Assuming this is true for all open trades, I have learned something today.
  10. bigda83

    bigda83 Initiate (119) Feb 13, 2014 New York

    These types of threads always confuse me, but I seem to be in the minority based on others saying they've seen it happen........... By this, I mean rare beers just happening to get drank or broken. Am I really the only one that doesn't just leave their best beers right out in the open, or in the kitchen fridge for others to have free dibs on??? If I have people coming over or some big party then bottles of FO wouldn't be left where other might potentially drink or break them. I'd pick up local stuff for the people who aren't big into the beer game and drink whatever is there. Normally with my craft friends we will have a few things we decided on splitting for that party and have them set and ready to go. I'm sure this stuff happens, but it seems like a ton of these threads all list a broken bottle or a bottle being drank as the reason and I just have never seen it before.
  11. TeemuWPG

    TeemuWPG Initiate (70) Sep 14, 2016 Manitoba (Canada)

    All around the world, craft beer fans are drinking beers and hosting social events. Doesn’t seem far fetched to me that when you mix alcohol and a crowd, mistakes can sometimes happen, even if they don’t happen to you.

    I’ve had friends over and have had bottles get cracked that I wasn’t planning on cracking. Stuff happens.
  12. donspublic

    donspublic Poo-Bah (1,572) Aug 4, 2014 Texas
    Premium Trader

    Yes this could totally happen. I at one time had so many wine fridges in my house I ran out of room and had one in the corner of the kitchen. We had a wine dinner with people over and the random couple got invited along with someone. The dude got shitfaced and then started looking for more wine. Next thing I know he has opened a $70 bottle of wine from the fridge in the corner and had already slammed half of it down. Shit happens, and we all feel like idiots when it happens to us.
  13. pwdbyhops

    pwdbyhops Initiate (158) Apr 1, 2015 Ohio

    I am confused. He offered Ground State? What happened with that? Did you say no to that offer? That seems like a really good offer to fix this.
  14. bigda83

    bigda83 Initiate (119) Feb 13, 2014 New York

    Yes, I'm aware these things can happen, however it's been a common response on BT threads in the past along with the in-laws drank it one that @4truth mentioned. Maybe I'm just OCD or old school, but as soon as I agree to a trade the stuff is completely set aside to avoid issues.
  15. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,414) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Premium Trader

    That is certainly the best practice. I know I for one double check to ensure that everything to be packaged and sent out is set aside and ready to go.
  16. eppie82

    eppie82 Meyvn (1,057) Apr 19, 2015 Illinois

    I agree that is a very dilligent way to go about it. I do that myself so I certainly understand your approach. However, not everyone does things this way, no matter how much we think they should.

    There are probably hundreds of trades that get completed smoothly all the time before something goes wrong. Usually when something does go wrong, it comes down to one of two things: shitty trader (stole your beer and/or no communication) or something out of the norm had to have happened. When something does occur out of the norm, it’s perfectly reasonable to have a level of skepticism at the explanation (and we should!) whether it be broken bottle while handling and/or shipping, accidentally drinking by whoever, etc etc. That’s when the community ends up debating whether this is a reasonable explanation and whether the trader in question merits benefit of the doubt (by offering substitute beers, how and what he/she communicates, among other things). I would argue that Beer Advocate community gets accused far more often than not of NOT giving the benefit of the doubt and coming down on an alleged bad trader with pitchforks and torches too easily. So in this case, where alleged BT has no prior trend of doing this, offered a (quality, in my opinion) substitute bottle, communicated promptly and clearly what happened, agreed to the OPs sequence of events, tried to work out another path forward,... I don’t know, but I tend to give him tha benefit of the doubt.
  17. John_M

    John_M Moderator (6,171) Oct 25, 2003 Oregon

    Sounds like you've read a "few" bad trader threads. :sunglasses:

    I think you summed up the approach most of us take very well in the BT threads.

    It's impossible to be completely certain in these situations, but just as you mentioned, given the circumstances surrounding what took place between the OP and the "BT", I think most of us are willing to give the BT the benefit of the doubt in this particular case.

    As for the comments made by @bigda83, I think he makes some good points, but in my experience not everyone is quite so level head and organized. In a perfect world, everyone would follow the game plan suggested by @bigda83 in his OP. In my experience, however, many folks simply don't think ahead, or they make incorrect assumptions about the behavior of their guests. Or they simply aren't very careful about where they store their beer (no matter how rare or valuable it is). While I think most of us have a certain level of skepticism when we read these "the cleaning lady drank my beer," or "the dog mistook it for a play toy and broke it" incidents, I think the reality is that sometimes the explanation provided by the BT really is accurate and true. I can't be certain of it of course, but I do think that's the case in this instance.
    #57 John_M, Sep 12, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  18. rozzom

    rozzom Crusader (701) Jan 22, 2011 New York

    This. Plus I would also chop off a nut (I have two kids so really more of a strong gesture than a full sacrifice) and place it front and center in the box - that way my trade partner could rest assured that I fully understood the extent to which I had let myself down
  19. readyski

    readyski Aspirant (224) Jun 4, 2005 California

    Yeah you're right, my goodwill gesture (though maybe reciprocated in kind and might lead to an actual trade with the OP) is clearly not enough :wink:
    rozzom likes this.