Barrel Aging and Brands: Does it Matter?

I think the fact that all the Eclipses have fairly different ratings is a strong indicator that a different barrel has a different affect, both positive and negative on a beer.

 

Nothing like flogging this particular horse to death yet again.

Assuming the same type of whiskey, brand only matters insofar as the distiller uses a consistent type of wood, for a consistent period of time, using the same wood charring process, for every single batch of that particular brand. The age of the wood and where it's sourced from affect the beer more than anything else the distiller does.

For example, the distillate for Rebel Yell bourbon, Weller's Bourbon, and (until recently) most Pappy Van Winkle bourbon was the same, irrespective of what they charged for each. As one bourbon blogger put it, "Weller's 12 year and Rebel Yell are failed Pappy." Pappy is pretty much just Weller aged for longer, but here's the kicker: the company doesn't know what brand the whiskey will sell as when they make it. They won't know for a decade or more.

 

That's true, but since the distiller's decision is ultimately made by someone tasting what's in a particular barrel and how it is maturing in that particular barrel, their periodic tasting determines which barrels are destined for one bottling or another so they can be channeled to bottling or additional aging. Thus the barrels do make a difference in the aging of the whiskey so far as the blender is concerned. They just don't know in advance how it will turn out.

What would be truly critical is to have someone do a blind tasting on the beers to see if the beer aged in a particular subset of barrels can be distinguished from each other and if there are clear preferences, and if they can identify the Bourbon used.

 

I posted a similar thread a while back:
http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/bourbon-barrel-question.135565/

 

You could tell if the beers being aged in them were something clean and neutral like an Imperial American Blonde or Imperial Cream Ale.

Fraoch had a Vintage cask #22 not long ago that was Imperial Heather Ale aged in Auchentoshan barrels. The scotch notes really came through nice.

Throwing a beer with tons of malt notes, chocolate, roast, hop character (ie. Imperial Stout & Barleywine) in will mostly just mask and muddle the individualistic notes into a vague character.

 

How can you tell the difference if the base beers are different? Also it depends on how much Bourbon flavor the drinker likes.

 

The differences are minute but they're definitely there. Beers in pappy barrels seem to have the best barrel flavor

 

Maybe it's just hype talking, but the fact that Rare and King Henry are so highly regarded even amongst the stellar Bourbon County series has to mean something. King Henry was clearly superior to BCBBW. I haven't had Rare, so I can't compare it to regular BCBS.

The variance in the Eclipse series also seems to indicate the same thing. I doubt that I'd be able to pick one barrel from another in beers, but that's because I'm not an avid bourbon drinker.

I do not think that bourbon and rye are the same, either, though it definitely depends on the percentage of rye used in the rye whiskey. '14 Darkness did not taste like rye at all, but Templeton BCBS was very obviously rye.

 

http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/the-new-science-of-old-whiskey/309522/

I just remembered this great artIcle I read in the Atlantic over a year ago. It discusses how much of an impact the quality of the barrel itself has on the finished product. Where and when the oak was harvested, where on the tree the individual staves come from etc. Buffalo Trace is apparently working on understanding some of these variables that create "honey barrels".

It's kind of cool how little is known about what happens during distillation to seperate great from mediocre bourbon. It's exciting to think that maybe one dy distillers will know enough to make a lot more great bourbon.

 

hmm... I think I can taste the difference between rye whiskey barrel vs bourbon whiskey barrel

but yeah agreed overall.

 

i would argue right & wrong here. the only other wheat recipe bourbon under Buffalo Trace (that comes to mind) is the Weller line. any number of other BT bourbons is a bit of a stretch in terminology when the overwhelming majority of bourbons Buffalo Trace produces utilize a rye strong grain instead of (Pappy/Weller) wheat.

well. for 1, you're tasting @ the consumer market level, which a scientist would probably point out PVW15 is 107° vs. Pappy 23 has A LOT more water on it when marketed. no? under typical conditions, the raw 23 year old barrel would have more heat / higher abv on it than the raw 15 y/o barrel.

true. however, i might put a premium on "Pappy" barrels (in the past much more so than what's gonna come out of Buffalo Trace going forward)... assuming a barrel survived in good condition, 23 years, was dumped and bottled a premium brand - the conclusion most could draw is it's likely a very well constructed, HIGH INTEGRITY barrel. better barrel (integrity-wise) likely = better final results. a poorly constructed barrel isn't likely to see 20+years of service.

i dunno. Brynildson seems pretty particular about his barrels. i heard he wasn't very happy a couple of years back when they were forced to go with 4R barrels for Parabola. based on taste & particularly "age-ability" i think he was probably right in being upset over deviating from his usual source. but i do agree. the program they run is first rate!

 

I am going to guess and say there probably is a difference but I know my palate is not trained enough to notice. I've tried about 10 different barrel aged stouts and while some are better than others I don't think it was the barrel that was used because there are many more factors that go into a good barrel aged stout besides the barrel.

 

it makes a difference, but it doesn't correlate with the quality of the spirit, put it that way.

 

They don't know for sure, but they have a very good idea as soon as a barrel is put down. Much like a vintner knows which vines will produce the best grapes because of the particularity especially of terrain and climate in a given part of his vineyard, a distiller knows where the sweet spots in his warehouse are with regards to temperature, humidity, and air quality, such that while it's impossible to know that a specific barrel will one day make it into a Pappy blend, they certainly know that a high percentage of barrels placed in certain areas will make the cut.

 

Chris, it is ironic you mentioned Heaven Hills. A few years ago I had a chance to have a long conversation with John Laffler (the person at Goose Island responsible for the barrel program at the time). He educated me that Goose Island would only use Heaven Hills Bourbon Barrels and only barrels of a certain age (14 years?). He did not relate to me the specifics on this decision but he was adamant that these were the only barrels they would use.

Cheers!

 

Eclipse as a comparison beer has come up a number of times, but I was wondering - does anyone know for sure if it is the exact same batch of base beer that goes into the different barrel variants or is it different batches over time?

I wonder if variation in the small batch brew process could lead to perceived differences more so than the barrel that was used?

 

I don't usually notice too much of a difference, but with Sucaba and Velvet Merkin I definitely did. There's something about those two beers that I'm not crazy about, and it's the same flavor in both of them that makes me say that. I think it's the type of bourbon barrel they chose to age them in. Conversely, when I tried Parabola I thought the bourbon flavors were very full and unique without being too sweet. I thought it was better than the majority I've tried.

 

That may have been the case then but it isn't anymore. There just aren't enough Heaven Hill barrels.

http://m.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/...ers-reviewed-by-six-increasingly-drunk-people

"This year the brewery acquired barrels from the likes of Heaven Hill, Buffalo Trace, Wild Turkey, and Jim Beam (mostly via its Knob Creek brand)."

Would be interesting to see a percentage breakdown for each of the three batches of 2014 BCS. The two 13.8% batches (August and October) were the smoothest yet in my opinion.

 

Yeah, the ‘hand writing was on the wall’ when I had my conversation with John Laffler:

“I asked John if obtaining enough barrels is a problem and he said that it is. They utilize barrels from Heaven Hills Distillery (he mentioned a specific year like 14 year old barrels). He mentioned that he obtains his barrels from a ‘third party’ person instead of dealing directly with Heaven Hills. He also mentioned that this third party guy is now ‘hawking’ these barrels to other breweries which is an irritation to the him; he stated that he purchases something like 80% of the third party guys barrels and therefore expects ‘preferential’ treatment. Apparently the demand for barrels is bumping up the price of barrels. John told me what they cost in the past and what they are costing now but I don’t recall the exact prices.”

Cheers!

 

they claimed the barrels they were using were an *average* of 14 years old. you can read into that they were most likely trapping barrels that were dumped for the Elijah Craig 12 & 18 bottlings. either Lafler was just saying off the cuff or you misunderstood they would *only* use 14 year old barrels? there was that blog post around 2011/12 in GIs barrel house with Lafler displaying 1999 "Heaven Hill" barrels. 2 things about said barrels. #1)1999-2011doesnt allow for that 14 year "only" comment to be factual. #2) the fine print on some of those "Heaven Hill" barrels indicate KY-DSP-354 which means the bourbon they contained wasnt actually made by Heaven Hill.