Barrel Aging and Brands: Does it Matter?

I purposefully stated “14 years?” with a question mark since I am uncertain of the specific timeframe.

What I can tell you is that John Laffler only used Heaven Hills barrels (at that time) and the barrels were of a ‘desired’ timeframe.

Cheers!

 

but we just went over the problem in general. Heaven Hill bought MANY of those barrels. wouldnt expect a brewer to necessarily know or understand. Brown Forman actually made the spirit many of the barrels contained. guess my question is, knowing that tidbit do you still run with "Lafler only used *Heaven Hill * barrels"? and when you debate that point do you wonder what else technically isn't exactly as it sounds or is advertised? make no mistake. not saying "they" are lying or deceiving you/us purposely, they just don't know. it's not really their concern.

 

I'm a confirmed Bourbon/Whiskey guy, and I don't think the volume is enough to really brand itself, but you might like one BA brew better depending on the barrel. Different brands give off different characteristics, vanilla, spicy, caramel, etc, the hotter the barrels the more influence obviously. If you gave me 3 Bourbons I doubt I could brand them, but I would have a definite preference, and it would have nothing to do with price. Elijah Craig 12 might be one of the best bourbons out there and inexpensive compared to others, what I love though is Knob Creek small batch single barrel, barrel strength at 120 proof. I've had BASC done in Buffalo Trace barrels and PVW barrels it was bourbon up front, but there is no difference to me, marketing.

 

Most pvw barrel stouts aside from this years assassin have had a distinct gram cracker flavor that I get in them. The thing that surprises me most is that that flavor is nowhere to be found drinking pappy 15,20 or 23.

 

No debate here from me. I am simply reporting what John Laffler told me.

Have a nice day!

 

Are there any other Quality Engineers here? Is it bad that all I can think about while perusing this thread is that none of these companies have a good handle on "Key Parameter Management"? I work with processes that create pretty complicated systems, and we spend a whole lot of time trying to understand how each individual part and sub-process affects the end state.

I suppose the stakes aren't as high when it comes to a BA beer - the beer will be purchased and consumed almost regardless of the outcome. But man, I get the sense that some fact based, engineered process improvement could go a long way towards helping these makers produce better, more consistent products. Consulting opportunity?

 

You have some interesting points here. I am hesitant to repeat more information that I obtained from John Laffler but what the heck.

Beyond what I already detailed concerning his preference on getting barrels from Heaven Hills of a particular age the other thing he mentioned to me was time in the barrel. Goose Island would place the beer in the barrel in the fall and ‘age’ the beer for a cold season and a warm season before bottling. The concept he described to me was they want the beer of contract and expand out of the wood to ‘draw out’ the flavors of the barrel (the wood flavors and the spirits within the wood flavors).

As regards your ideas on “Key Parameter Management" there may indeed be a lot of merit here. The barrel aging process is expensive on many levels:

· The expense of the barrels themselves

· The real estate (warehouses) to store the barrels as they age

· For any business time = money and barrel aging involves aging time

· Etc.

Any process control that could better optimize and perform overall quality control of barrel aging should be of interest to any brewery that is willing to listen to new ideas.

I would think that if you could obtain data on aspects like how many barrels constitute ‘wastage ‘ during this overall process could be helpful in selling this value of “Key Parameter Management". Discarding the beer from barrels which didn’t work out I would think would be a big concern.

Maybe a contact to Brian Taylor (Head Cellarman) at Goose Island is in order?

Cheers!

 

As someone who only has access to BCBS what are the differences?

 

this is a great point. i wonder do you mean at the distiller level, brewer level or both/all?

one thing i would say that precedes the idea i believe you are speaking of, which generally isn't factored into the present discussion - the main reason there were such large inventories of older American whiskey available was due to poor sales which amassed a huge glut. whiskey that would have been bottled & sold at much younger ages in the 90s, instead sat in limbo reaching ages unheard of .

the miracle was old whiskey became sought after in the US & it all worked out. the downside is it was not by design & was all accidental or unintended. you don't do a bunch of the type of research i believe you are speaking of on something perceived a failure or loss. until the sudden interest in long aged whiskey, the objective was: how do we NEVER do that again as opposed to observing how to best maintain or duplicate it.

as a result, when market correction came, the industry contracted entirely to include the practices, know how/experience, equipment, facilities & other resources. there's a gap there that tends to go completely unnoticed in the present day conversation. distillers have generally dealt with the issue through deception, sometimes very careful wording &/or silence. there's a bunch of other factors, some of which i already hinted at but the point is it's very difficult get to enough factual information to build any sort of sensible model. & the inability to get to fact trickles down to us functioning on half truths here.

i don't want to discourage you from reporting or sharing - i see what you're doing there. i would do something absurd like ask you to remind us what barrels Rare & subsequently KH were matured in while simultaneously quoting John Laffler "Only used Heaven Hill barrels". but why let logic get in the way?

Have a nice day!

 

The OP needs to do a side-by-side tasting of a rye vs. a bourbon barrel Eclipse variant of the same vintage. I did this a year ago and found substantial differences between the two. It was a great learning experience for me in this very subject matter.

 

Do you think the rising mini-trend of no-age-statement whiskey might have started as a result of this?

 

Yes it does, and no it doesn't. Rest assured, there's been some very premium and pricey barrels that have aged beer that has come onto the market VERY infected because either the racking of them was sloppy or they had a chance to acquire attributes which made them develop infections which got pushed to bright and ruined the whole run.

****You still have to have them tested and assured of their not being infected.****

Barrels are pricey, especially as you go up in what was residing in them. Still though. It's actually about logistics and how soon they can get in the breweries hands and racked with something and the cellar people doing the racking to be clean.

 

yes ithink its fueling the issue. the demand for old whiskey continues to increase. what I think is miscalculated there never really was a game plan to make barrels or spirit intended to stand up to theose ages. now they're trying to do it on purpose.

 

Never had one! Last time I checked it was called a Boilermaker! Stick the bourbon in a beer and drink up! Call me in the morning when you are hating life !!!

 

I'm conflicted about whether I want to smack you or hug you because I love your avatar exactly as much as I dislike this post.

 

Both! I need Both! Not trying to be a "Troller" but, I'm just completely sick and tired of everything on BA being barrel aged this and that! If that's your thing...Cheers! I had to throw my 2 Cents in! If not..."It's game over man...game over" !!!

Does Kurt Russell have any Barrel Aged "Things" at McMurdo ??!! Now you got me looking in the closet for that DVD !!!
Cheers! Prost!

 

Great barrels won't help a sub par base beer and sub par barrels won't make a great base poor.

Though I've never had a bad PVW BA stout so who knows.

 

Something notable not pointed out by the bourbon enthusiasts yet (unless I missed it) is Pappy Van Winkle and Weller is made using a wheat mash instead of the typical rye mash at Buffalo Trace. (As I type this I'm drinking some 12 year Weller ). There is no way a wheated bourbon barrel aged beer is going to taste like a rye bourbon barrel aged beer. I'd love to be a test mule.

 

I thought that the JW Lees Vintage Ale aged in Lagavulin barrels had a distinct Lagavulin edge to it. I can certainly taste a difference between aging in say, red wine barrels vs bourbon barrels, but I can't taste differences in certain brands of a type of liquor (or wine) barrel. (Except Lagavulin, so far. And maybe that was only in my head.)