Germany Bayernbiere Bought and Drunk

Discussion in 'Europe' started by boddhitree, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,727) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania

    “ …very few people (Germans) get the joke.”

    That is because they don’t have Stahlsturm’s sense of humor!:)

    Prost!
     
  2. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    Yeah, we do... :p

    There's actually not a lot of Currywurst in the towns around here. Franconia and the Upper Palatinate are firm grippers of Bratwurst while Lower and Upper Bavaria fancy Weißwurst. Currywurst is originally from Berlin and (at least around here) is called "Apachenzipf'l" which basically translates to "Apache's Dick".

    If you read scientific articles about humour (Hard to believe there IS such a thing...) you'll notice that German humour is mostly feces based and not sexually oriented. Even though in some regions of Germany "Wurst" doubles as slang for number 2 we have much more colourful terms so wurst-based jokes are not really party hits anywhere in Germany.
     
  3. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    I think Germans are all equally void of humour. What most people lack is an insight into the darker corners of the mind of a native English speaker. The more crude approaches of a language (though sometimes the most important terms to know and use appropriately) are sadly never part of any formal language training. I don't want to know how many wars have started over the Millenia because some poor innocent ambassador stepped right into the trap of double meanings while toasting his host and got his head chopped off for it.
     
  4. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,727) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania

    “I think Germans are all equally void of humour.”

    But you have a great sense of humor! Did you Rhode Island wife (who is Wicker Hard Core) ‘transfer’ some humor to you!?!

    Cheers!

    P.S. Did you notice the American English spelling of “humor”!?!;)
     
  5. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    Yeah, I also notice the American English spelling of "wassup dawg!!&&??%%!!!" instead of the traditional (and much preferred) "How are you doing Sir ?" Your point is ? :)
     
    cu29 likes this.
  6. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (1,849) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Of course I suppose you mean, Wie geht es Ihnen? Opposed to "Wie gehts, Hund!?" :D

    The best German humor I've ever encountered was of the very dry sort (something I'm also very good at). A bar tender at a small Stube once recommended a dish to me and I cleaned the platter. When he asked how it was I told him (auf Deutsche) it was awful. Somewhat astonished, he looked at the clean plate, looked up at me -- saw the sideways, wry look I was giving him, smiled slowly and nodded his head and took the plate away.
     
  7. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,002) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    Always nice when you can get a German waitperson to "laugh"....
     
    steveh likes this.
  8. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    Here's a report on Pax Bräu from Bayerische Rundfunk. The audio is in German.
    What's interesting is that the Brewer, Andreas Seufert, says his beers are often sold out within days, if not hours. See, there is a great pent up demand for real Craft beer. He says his days working in China and Vietnam open his yes to the beer styles you can find in Germany. Also what's funny is he says his beers are not like the beers in Kneipen where "you open your throat and then it's gone."
     
  9. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    It's easy if you don't mind the manner of laughter. Most of the time they'll be laughing about you, not with you, especially when you are caught tipping like an American.
     
  10. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    He sounds like an Elitist. If you can't drink his beer the way beer was meant to be drunk (= 1 Liter clay mug under the welcoming branches of a tree that's been there for 600 years) then maybe this guy needs to be avoided.


    And yeah, I'm sort of joking, I just really don't like these people who think they are better than us...
     
  11. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    I really didn't get the vibe that the brewer thinks he's better than us. He meant to say beer is not meant to be chugged and drunk quickly to get drunk, rather sipped and enjoyed for the variety of flavors. Stahlsturm, are you jealous he's been successful just because he's not brewing ONLY German styles? Andreas Seufert is the wave of the future if German beer is to make a comeback.

    His regular, year-round beer is a Weizen and Vollbier, but he adds a monthly specialty beer. He will even make a Doppelbock February, a Märzen in March, a Maibock in May, a 2 kinds of Pils - in August and in September - and a Weizendoppelbock in November.
    [​IMG]
    There are so many breweries in the Franken area that already make the same beer styles with very little innovation in styles, so his idea seems to be combine making both German and non-German styles but really focusing on making each beer a "taste experience," not just the same old thing Opa drank.
     
  12. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    Jealous ? Hell no, hahaha. He's welcome to brew whatever he wants, I just am very critical of this "geekification" (Yeah, I'm aware that's not a proper word... :p) of beer. To me the attempt to raise beer drinking to a science (or an art form, depending on who you ask) is just as dangerous as Fernsehbier flat-rate parties. It's opposing extremes on the same scale and I'm very critical of either.
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  13. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,002) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    Again I must ask: how many breweries in Franken have you visited? Nearly every variation on Kellerbier could -- with some "creative" marketing, be designated its own "style." But really, what would be the point of that? The German brewers I've talked to about the future of German beer all agree that it is precisely in holding fast to, reviving, and/or finding greater acceptance for these traditions -- and not in any American style flavor bombs -- that the "innovations" of tomorrow are to be found.
     
  14. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (2,904) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    And yet national consumption of beer and the number of breweries are on the decline and give indications of continuing to do so. Sometimes those in the midst of a sea change are the least able to foresee their future landing site. It's not unlike the smog in LA. Looking up at the sky one sees little of it, however looking across the basin at the horizon it's plain that " the smog is over there."
     
    boddhitree likes this.
  15. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,002) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    I didn't mean to imply that these brewers are simply stubbornly clinging to the old ways of doing things with no eye to the future (although I'm sure some of that attitude still exists, and is continuing to contribute to the decline in German brewing). Rather I'm talking about brewers such as Matthias Trum from Schlenkerla or Stephan Michel from Mahr's who have both already bucked tradition in many ways. For example, in 1993 -- my first year in Bamberg and a few years before Matthias Trum took the reins -- Schlenkerla produced 2 styles: Maerzen and Bock; now they produce 6. Same goes for Mahr's...and almost every other brewery in town. Moreover, Trum told me he has a dozen or so new recipes waiting to be launched when they are perfected. For many Germans, this in itself would constitute a "sea change," as most change comes very very slowly in that country -- and particularly in Franconia. Again, change is already there in Germany -- even if we, from our US perspective, can't properly see it because it doesn't look like the change we're used to.
     
    boddhitree and Gutes_Bier like this.
  16. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,002) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    Oops: make that 3 styles (Helles, Maerzen, and Bock) and now 7 (Helles, Maerzen, Bock, Rauchweizen, Krausenbier, Fastenbier, and Doppelbock).
     
  17. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    I have no problem with what you suggest. There should be brewers that adhere to very high standards of brewing their traditional brews. They can do that all they want, and I hope they're financially successful, too. I hope they keep traditional styles and recipes vibrant. But unfortunately, they absolutely either suck at marketing, by aiming it at the wrong age group and turning off the youth in Germany. Or, they also suck in finding innovative ways of delivering their product to those who want it outside of their Kaff. How many of these are known outside their little cow-stand? Hardly any, for a) really, have you seen some of their internet sites? and b) how do I get them? why don't they do road shows, etc to publicize outside their Kaff.

    I've repeated this so often... from what I heard in his interview, 1,000 L were sold out of his beer within A DAY? That's demand! It means there's a lot of pent up demand for this stuff! Just like there was in the USA. He's doing well and other small brewers are closing or being bought up by conglomerates? I think for me the best would be for both avenues to be coexist successfully, the traditional and the innovative. As long as there's room for both, why begrudge innovation just because you crave conservation of tradition? Both are possible and necessary for German beer to be successful beyond 1950.
     
  18. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    A brewer cannot multiply output without compromising quality. I know it must be an alien concept to an American but these people have their corner of the market that allows them to make what they want and at the quality they want and they are happy that way and feel no need for expansion whatsoever. The idea that they should bend over backwards to serve a potential customer is on the same level as asking them to grow a 3rd arm or declare war on Winter. In a German perspective good beer is a privilege, not a right. You have to earn it. I know, I have it easy because I don't live in a makro wasteland like Bankfurt but the Brewer's guild will not budge from their time honoured traditions.
     
  19. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    You are right of course. Seriously, you are. But I at least can't help but wonder, why do they feel the need to advertise their product like the craft version of Christopher Street Day ? Their claims of innovation and re-invention are clearly aimed at people who seek a new thrill and who don't give a flying f... about beer and who will move on somewhere else once the next thing comes around in 2 years and then we sit here in the ruins of what's left... I have seen all this in different scenes and I don't really care for a reply.
     
  20. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (1,849) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    That was the Oper at the Hofbräuhaus who taught me the proper way to eat Weißwurst and Bretzel. I believe his comment was, "Weißwurst suppe?" :D

    Was my first time being served in the traditional manner, but I remembered and never made the same mistake again!
     
  21. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    Did I mention compromising on quality? Who said they need expansion? Of these who feel no need for anything, are they a viable business, first and foremost? So why is there the Brauereiausterben? We've talked about this before, so your reaction strikes me as simply that: reactionary.

    The old town my Oma lived in had a main street full of farmers up and down the main street, and today, the town is devoid of farmers? Why? Modernity, technical improvements, globalized markets, etc. A sad loss, but inevitable considering either their children didn't want to continue or financially it wasn't a viable operation. You can say the same thing for other traditional German jobs, like Bäcker or Metzger (baker and butcher), a majority of whom have also died out.

    This attitude is the reason Germany is still considered a "service wasteland." They can have this attitude as long as the consumer is keeping it a viable business, as long as there are enough people buying what they're selling. But how about if the number of buyers are thinning out? Or there's competition from outside? Don't compromise on quality; rather, use techniques to find new buyers who really want what you're selling but maybe don't conveniently live next door. OR, focus on your niché, your Kaff, and hope you survive. For those who are surviving and thriving, I say great, but it's the one's who aren't who need to think outside the box.
     
  22. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (1,849) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Huh, of what does this remind me? No, no -- wait, don't tell me -- it'll come to me...

    (to this, I went to a beer tasting at a local, good retailer over the weekend -- I think I sampled 3 small tastes. Never saw so many IPAs and Imperial Stouts in my life -- >yaaawn!<)
     
  23. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    When your resources are limited the only way to raise output is by compromising quality. Especially since all you Americans buy up all our hops and drive up the price :p

    We have indeed talked about that and the answer then and now is, there's 2 main reasons.
    1) Young people being too damn lazy and not wanting to work a job that requires that you are basically glued to your kettle and work it 24/7 year in year out. Unless you really really love beer they'd much rather work a nice cozy 8 to 4 office job with weekends off and 32 days of mandatory vacation time every year.
    2) The European Union and their infernal legislation that basically makes it financial suicide to take over your Dad's brewery unless you got at least 50 Grand to install additional crap you'll never need just to comply.
    Deciding to not bother is hardly reactionary, it's pretty understandable.

    That indeed we are, at least by American standards. But then, knowing both sides of the coin, I'd rather have a grouchy German over some clueless Indian call center slave.

    You are just describing pretty much everyone who has managed to evade the pitfalls I meantioned above. Growing too big, spreading out too far is the arch-trauma of all Germans and what happens to those breweries who once were treasured regional breweries ? InBev, Heineken or some other faceless conglomerate bought them and gutted them and turned them into yet another faceless purveyor of piss.
     
  24. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    Well ? :)

    It all comes down to "I know / drink / can handle more extreme / weird / bizarre stuff than you so I'm better than you". They aren't actually dropping their pants but it's still a penis comparing contest. Can these people please move on and drink fermented yak piss instead ?
     
  25. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (1,849) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Starts with a "B"... I'll get it, gimme some time -- it's Monday. ;)
     
  26. einhorn

    einhorn Aspirant (290) Nov 3, 2005 California
    Beer Trader

    This is false. Using different (ale) yeasts can boost production by 300%, sometimes more if you consider lagering big (doppel)bocks for extended periods of time.
     
  27. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,002) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    You mean use ale yeasts and shorter lagering times for traditional German styles...nah, that won't compromise quality. Can't wait for the German equivalent of New Belgium Shift! ;)
     
    Stahlsturm likes this.
  28. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    And changing a recipie is not compromising how ?
     
  29. einhorn

    einhorn Aspirant (290) Nov 3, 2005 California
    Beer Trader

    The fermentation time of an ale yeast is about 7 days, and can generally be racked after 10-12 days. Any lager needs about 30 days from brewing to racking.
     
  30. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,002) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    This is PRECISELY the danger I fear from U.S. "craft" influence. So many people claim that U.S. craft lagers -- which are more often than not produced on ale schedules and using inferior products and other production methods -- are as good as the German traditional styles. Fact is, these short cuts take a major toll on the final quality: anyone who has traveled and drank in the traditional centers of German brewing can tell you this in no uncertain terms. Still, as we see in the U.S. and with younger generations of beer drinkers, these passable versions of the classics are not only sufficient replacements for -- but also held up (read: marketed) as "innovative" when compared to -- their traditional counterparts. I, for one, will not have any part of such foolishness and will fight as long as necessary to make sure German beer doesn't simply "shift" its source of corruption from the conglomerates to these upstarts.
     
    Stahlsturm and steveh like this.
  31. einhorn

    einhorn Aspirant (290) Nov 3, 2005 California
    Beer Trader

    I am not suggesting that one should brew a lager with an ale yeast. What I am saying is that the original statement is simply false. And please do not compare apples to oranges, judging that a stout/ale is inherently inferior to a doppelbock or any other lager.
     
  32. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (1,849) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Vice versa seems to be more prevalent on BA.

    It's not judging one as inferior to another, it's understanding why they're different.

    There are so many "bock beers" in the US that are nothing more than brown ales or porters (try Anchor's Bock alongside their Porter). If I want a Bock, I don't want a Porter. And, uh -- vice versa.

    *Hope I didn't negate the "like" with my edits! ;)
     
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  33. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (1,849) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Had some Sam Adams Alpine Spring yesterday (which I enjoyed quite a bit last year) that tasted so grainy I almost dumped it.
     
  34. Gutes_Bier

    Gutes_Bier Disciple (385) Jul 31, 2011 Germany

    There is a culture shock associated with being a consumer in America vs. being a consumer in Germany, and I agree wholeheartedly with Boddhitree as far as that is concerned. The longer I live in Germany,however, the happier I am with the beer culture here. I don't think Germany needs to be more like America in either their brews (i.e., making IPA's, Imperial Stouts, etc.) or their marketing/selling of said brews. German countryside brewers simply don't have the ambition to be a country-wide phenomenon. They aren't going to brew more beer because they don't care if they can sell it in Heidelberg or not. They're about making the beer, not makin' that paper. Good for them.

    And I do miss the heck out of those IPA's by the way.
     
  35. einhorn

    einhorn Aspirant (290) Nov 3, 2005 California
    Beer Trader

    Ah yes, the altruistic German brewer who brews for the love of beer and mankind. And the US brewer who only wants to take your money... end//sarcasm

    In the end, no matter what you do, it's a business. Period. You can be happy with what you have or chose to expand if you can sell enough, or at least grow organically. Soon you will hit a maximum on production and need to make decisions. Unfortunately, it's the other way around in Germany, in case you haven't noticed. Overcapacity, low prices, high barriers to market (pay to play at retail, financed gastronomy) combined with declining consumption is killing many breweries, and has been for many years. Which means status quo does not work - something has to budge.

    AGAIN, and I repeat myself: the most elegant and believable (glaubwürdig) tool for German brewers to stay alive is to reinvent the old German styles (which could include ale yeasts) and possibly integrate English or Belgian styles into that mix if deemed "sellable" in their market. For many it's that or "sterben in Schönheit".
     
    boddhitree likes this.
  36. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    You mean they don't care about getting rich? That's ok, it's one's who aren't breaking even and are a losing concern that's the problem. First it happened in the cities in Germany, and over the last 2 decades it's reached Bayern.

    1) This is a joke, right? As a brewer myself, slaving 24/7 over beer is maybe your fantasy, but not reality.
    2) In other words, no investors can be found at the low low entry price of €50K to a business with traditional ties to the community? No one? In the town, or village or neighboring or next or...? Because it loses money and has a bad business plan. No matter if it's "crap you'll never need" or simply window dressing, if no GROUP of investors can be found at that low price, then yeah, the business should be put out of its misery... or a better business plan thought up, and it doesn't involve compromising on ingredients or products, but involves better marketing and the direct distribution channels provided by the internet or whatever. So instead of bemoaning this fact, it can be a good re-start to an old business by bringing in fresh cash as well as ideas.
     
  37. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,002) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    I agree with this. And, again, I would add that plenty of places are already doing it. I was amazed at the number of new beers that have appeared in Bamberg and surroundings in just the past two years. I say let this direction gain some footing first instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I'm certain the traditional brewers have a close eye on the folks doing the U.S.-influenced stuff (I know for a fact that Trum and Michel do) -- and they're waiting to see if it's a passing fad or something that will gain serious traction. Perhaps some of these people also have an eye on the U.S. scene -- where the trend toward ever more extreme "innovations" is actually losing much of its influence now.

    If I had to bet on what will happen in Germany, I'd say that things will follow a familiar pattern you see in that country as regards matters of popular culture in general: the country as a whole comes a bit late to the game as regards the "new trend/wave of the future." After much of the original enthusiasm has died where the trend originated, Germany dives in head first and embraces a distilled "essence" of the movement (my guess when talking about "craft" beer: a grapefruity IPA). Long after U.S. craft beer geeks have abandoned the now ubiquitous grapefruity IPAs in their own country as too pedestrian, the Germans will still be advertising them at elevated prices in every disco, "craft" beer bar, and Studentenkneipe, where -- alongside Corona, etc. -- they will find a market and enjoy a degree of lasting success ;) (EDIT: if you need a musical equivalent to this phenomenon, think Frank Zappa's "Bobby Brown")
     
  38. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    You're right, unfortunately that's exactly how we got the "juice beers," it was simply a copy a semi-successful business idea from the USA. I agree with you up until the....
    Here I think Germany will differ and go it's own way, develop independently and come up with a model similar to Pax Bräu Radeberger Gruppe: different nichés for different market segments. But I pray up pops many more Pax Bräus: great quality, great taste, and not afraid to try to mix and match traditional styles with "foreign" ones.
     
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  39. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,002) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    I don't know. I see the Germans being much more likely to find the "one" Exemplar (not necessarily a single brand, but a single, specific style) that suits their needs and to stick with that. All that variety would likely just confuse them. (Another pop culture example: Wer Wird Millionaer; the U.S. had dozens such quiz shows and they all lost their audience, whereas Germany pretty much latched on to and stuck with WWM long after other countries had abandoned it. I could go on and on with analogous examples, and I suspect anyone who has lived in Germany would be able to as well ;) )
     
  40. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,727) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania


    "geekification"

    Whew-wee, look at Stahlsturm speak jive!;)

    Prost!
     
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