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Beat still at RR

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by oreo, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. yamar68

    yamar68 Apr 1, 2011 Minnesota

    Off-topic, I know. Sorry, it just seems like a lot of BA's have been defending high prices in the bottle shops in recent threads but then attacking exorbitant trade offers. Seems contradictory to me.
  2. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    First, I don't think that the SAME BA's are actually making those arguments.

    Second, why is that inconsistent? It's perfectly consistent to say that beer is systematically underpriced and that beers are being "ransomed" (or whatever). The first is all about the MSRP, but the second is a bunch of relative factors. If beers are systematically underpriced, then odds are pretty good they're similarly underpriced. So even if you think Beat or King Henry should have sold for twice as much, they should still trade 1:1. So someone asking for more is, by that definition, asking for too much.

    You can quibble about certain things in there, but I think it's pretty straightforward that those two positions aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

    (Not that anyone necessarily cares, but my position is that beer is systematically underpriced in general, but that some of the big names being stupid about releases is compounding the problem. That Beatification has lasted this long at the brewery and been so smooth for locals to get is a testament to the inanity of the GI/Founders model of release. I also don't really give two shits about what people ask for their beer, though I find obvious attempts to inflate a beer's perceived value annoying. That said, the latter isn't particularly common.)
    StarRaptor, nanobrew and Jerriko like this.
  3. KevSal

    KevSal Oct 17, 2010 California
    Beer Trader

    I think everyone should be ecstatic about the amount that was released. The bottom line is that it's an amazing beer (instead of a hyped mediocre beer), and this batch is fantastic! I only wish I had more for myself lol, mine are going straight to folks who have unselfishly traded their gems to me in the past!

    I understand the frustration about people asking too much for this beer, but because of the amount released that means more chances of finding reasonable traders as well. Actually I've seen quite a lot of people sharing the wealth rather than ransoming, which is quite refreshing.

    DBCOACHEMUP Dec 16, 2011 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Best thing I gained from this entire discussion.
  5. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    I wouldn't doubt that it is because a lot of people arguing about that is just arguing the semantics of it. I think we all now by now from those people if we didn't before that you can't gouge anyone on something that isn't an essential good. We also all know what people mean by price gouging by now isn't the actual definition of gouging...yet people continue to argue semantics on this, its a beer forum, not a legal document :confused:
  6. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    Ok what the hell do you mean by difference of opinion? I think most BAs will agree with me that the norm is that nothing is locked in or finalized until you exchange a conversation stating ok so the trade is these beers on my end for these beers on your end and the other person replies in agreement. Any discussing before this happens, even if it looks like it will be a locked in trade is not one. I would never bitch about someone not trading me their beer when it wasn't locked in by the standards I described above. Even if it was locked in and they backed out, I'd just move on and never trade with them again.

    Clear communication is key and a lot of people on here from what I've seen don't wanna be mean and tell you no, so when you propose something and they say yea sure or yea maybe, that doesn't constitute a locked in trade agreement. But if you ask me those people should just grow some balls and say sorry not interested and avoid the confusion. Being clear avoids a lot of butt hurt issues.

    I always make sure the other person is on the same page as me so that if I read the conversation to someone else they wouldn't be confused about anything.

  7. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    O and also usually you exchange info after, if the other person doesn't send me their shipping info I don't consider it locked in either...
  8. bkrueger

    bkrueger Sep 27, 2007 California

    Beatification is still here. I'm drinking my second one in the last couple hours in honor of Russian River's 8th anniversary. I even mixed a little fresh supplication in the last 1/4 or so of my Beatification at the brewery earlier to make a delicious blend. Hope it lasts for another couple weeks so I can keep getting cold ones at the brewery. On a side note, I think the enamel on my teeth are starting to come off or at least it sure feels like it right now.
    aasher likes this.
  9. Duffman929

    Duffman929 Nov 27, 2010 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    You are about 15 mins from the brewery...I think I would have spent several hundred dollars this week if it were me.
  10. Frozenmoses

    Frozenmoses Nov 23, 2010 Texas
    Beer Trader

    So where's that Cantillon keg at?
  11. bkrueger

    bkrueger Sep 27, 2007 California

    Still waiting to become friends with the Shelton Bros I guess. In the mean time at least these showed up today
  12. aasher

    aasher Jan 27, 2010 Indiana
    Beer Trader

    Ecstatic is right. Try to find a crazy release where a SoCal trader could get six bottles of a Founders release or a Bourbon County variant. I'm in the Midwest and because of the six bottle limit, I have an allocation coming my way. Vinnie nailed it. God I love that beer!
    alwaysanswerb likes this.
  13. Durb777

    Durb777 Nov 30, 2011 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    How much does Beatification cost per bottle at the brewery
  14. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

  15. eyeenjoybeer

    eyeenjoybeer Feb 18, 2011 Seychelles

    This assumes that these breweries all have the same desired outcome.
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  16. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    Man, can you edit your post so it doesn't look like I said that? Thanks.

    Anyway, if you're actually saying that Founders would rather have a clusterfuck of a release that makes pretty much everyone involved butthurt versus a smooth release that increases the goodwill felt by locals toward the brewery then that's fine. I just very sincerely doubt it.
  17. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    I don't think that's what he said at all. I interpreted as Founders and Russian River just have very different business models. Russian River obviously wants to make sure all of their locals are taken care of, and they have proven this over time with pulling back their distro and trying to keep as much of their beer in Cali as they can. They don't seem very concerned with expanding to new markets so much as fully supplying their existing distro. Founders, on the other hand, continues to grow and explore new markets, running more of a business-like brewery based on growth. Have they gotten a little ahead of themselves as far as being able to keep up with production? Probably. But I'm curious to see if that changes with the new, larger brewing system.
  18. eyeenjoybeer

    eyeenjoybeer Feb 18, 2011 Seychelles

    Fixed it.

    You seem to be saying that "...Founders would rather have a clusterfuck of a release that makes pretty much everyone involved butthurt versus a smooth release that increases the goodwill felt by locals toward the brewery...."
    That is your assumption, not mine, about Founder's intentions. I would suppose that Founder's would like to please locals as well as those in the different markets they distribute to. They are a regional brewery, so they serve their region. RR is happy to serve only their local market with this release and has a few accounts in very select other markets. These are different business models. They don't really compare.

    I think they all want to please their customers. However, some customers can't be pleased.

    I am echoing Mark.
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  19. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    I'm not making any assumptions about their intentions other than that pissing off customers is bad. Is that REALLY an unreasonable assumption? Did you two even read the KBS release threads? Can you honestly tell me that you think the way Founders handled KBS this year is superior in any possible way to the way RR handled beat?
  20. eyeenjoybeer

    eyeenjoybeer Feb 18, 2011 Seychelles

    Let me follow-up just to say that many companies are being faulted for distributing or for not distributing certain beers. There is always a party that feels injury.
  21. BigTomZ

    BigTomZ Apr 14, 2009 Virginia

    The bottom line is that everyone wants the beer they have to be worth more in trades than the beer others have. People will go out of their way to shit on the value of other beers in order to pump up what they have. We see it every single day, and it isn't going to change any time soon.

    In my opinion, if someone trades something crazy for a release and it sets the asking price higher... too bad. Just be patient since in most cases the asking price will come back down. If the value stays high and you don't have the weight to get it... too bad.
  22. eyeenjoybeer

    eyeenjoybeer Feb 18, 2011 Seychelles

    I did Even read the KBS thread. I Even talked to some folks that went, face to face. I personally think Founder's did a fine job with the KBS release. Those who really have differing opinions were at different parts of the line for the release. They, again, are trying to please as many folks as possible, but some folks just can't be pleased. That is not their fault.
  23. eyeenjoybeer

    eyeenjoybeer Feb 18, 2011 Seychelles

    Yes, and it is only beer.
  24. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    No, and that's not what either of us said at all. And yes, I read the entirety of the KBS thread, and I was there. Neither of us said that the Founders way was better, just different.
  25. BigTomZ

    BigTomZ Apr 14, 2009 Virginia

    I find these types of threads entertaining anyway. Especially when I am at my night job.
  26. Rempo

    Rempo Jan 18, 2010 Indiana

    Do you have any idea how many people got to buy KBS that aren't near the brewery?
  27. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    Umm, okay. Let's go through this. I said that the fact that this release was universally lauded by those involved "is a testament to the inanity of the Founders/GI model".

    Possumguy then says that assumes that they all want the same outcome. To which I reply that it only assumes that they don't want people to pissed off at them. So then you say that you never said they wanted that, just that they do it differently? So, how have you addressed anything I've said AT ALL? I say that those releases are a failure because they generate tons of ill-will (and this point is completely inarguable, if you read the KBS thread). That is my entire point. If you're going to argue against me you need to say why generating tons of ill-will is acceptable (or desirable). Saying "it's just different" isn't addressing anything because I already know it's different. I'm saying it's worse. If you disagree with me then you're saying it's not, and I'd like to know why.

    Do you have any idea how many people didn't get to buy KBS that are near the brewery? Why is one superior to the other?
    nanobrew likes this.
  28. eyeenjoybeer

    eyeenjoybeer Feb 18, 2011 Seychelles

    This equation doesn't work out, please see the explanations laid out above.

    "Possumguy" .....so should I refer to you as "Zebra fleshlight guy?"
    yamar68 likes this.
  29. Rempo

    Rempo Jan 18, 2010 Indiana

    Words in my mouth much? Where did I say one was superior to the other? You're the one who said that one was inane, instead of realizing that each type of release has its plusses and minuses. How many people didn't get to buy KBS at the release? How many people could've bought Beatification had it been released for distribution? Can't please everyone all the time.
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  30. eyeenjoybeer

    eyeenjoybeer Feb 18, 2011 Seychelles

    And I would say that the ill-will is generated on the consumption side - not the production side. The consumer needs to wear some responsibility here. And there are many other variables in this equation that don't get considered here. These variables affect each beer distribution/consumption model differently, thus, affecting the "happiness" of the customers. To say that it is simply Founders model that is at fault disregards the many thousands of varied expectations that seek out their product as well as demographic and geographic factors. This is obviously a simplification of a complex system for the sake of an internet discussion.

    And I do like the way that RR handled this release, for the record.
  31. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    My god, when I'm saying "I think this model is worse" and you reply to me saying something defending the model I think it's pretty fair to assume that you're defending the model. I also didn't put words in your mouth, you directly said that distributing KBS lets more people get that, so I asked you why it's better for more people to get it in distribution that closer to home.

    I'm saying that the number doesn't really matter, it's how people feel about how it went. Have you heard anyone who bought Beat complain about how it was handled? Why is it so controversial to say that a release that generates significant amounts of ill will is a terrible model of release?

    What equation? I have no idea what you're talking about.
    How on earth do you see a fleshlight there? That's a pretty interesting insight to your psyche, jeez.
  32. eyeenjoybeer

    eyeenjoybeer Feb 18, 2011 Seychelles

    Yeah, you win the internet today. ;)
  33. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    My impression is that you are vastly overrating the amount of "ill will" generated by the KBS release. Yes, at the time, people were pissed that their allotments got cut in half, or that they got shut out because a crazy number of people showed up. However, those same people got over it. People realized there was still plenty of beer to go around, and they moved on. I highly doubt it will have a lasting effect on Founders' sales.

    I also don't understand why you need us to agree with you so badly.
  34. Rempo

    Rempo Jan 18, 2010 Indiana

    The Founders model was worse at the brewery. People traveled and went home unhappy.
    The Founders model was better in distribution. People far away from the brewery got to buy it.

    You act like everything is so black and white. There's shades of gray, man.
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  35. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    Oh I doubt that it will really affect them, but I think the fact that they announced like 3 days later that they're doing it differently shows that they recognize it was a clusterfuck. I think that means it was a bad way to do it.

    I don't. I just like to argue about stupid things with strangers on the internet.

    Not really. I think that the way they do releases is worse. I think if you can't sate demand in a market you shouldn't distribute to it, and that they do it wrong. That's not really black and white, something can be worse while not being THE WORST EVER. I think shooting beer out of a cannon into the sun would probably be the worst.

    Anyway I don't really think that it makes much of a difference where people are who buy beer, however you do it the number who get it will end up being somewhat similar, the only question is how much hassle it is to get. I think the best release will minimize that hassle, and it's transparently obvious that the diaspora method the Founders and GI use does not do that.
  36. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    Founders and Goose apparently do. And if, as you admit, it doesn't really effect their sales, why not try and expand their distribution as much as possible? Contrary to what many people on this site would like to think, breweries like Founders and Goose Island (and even Russian River, to some extent) aren't succeeding because of their special releases, but rather because of their everyday products. Obviously breweries like Founders, Goose, and Firestone Walker believe that if they can spread their special releases as far as possible, it gains them more notoriety for their every day products to sell in new markets. I would imagine they're not having a hard time fulfilling the demand for Dirty Bastard in Michigan, so why not try and see if it can sell out in Arizona or New Mexico? Again, it's just a different way of running their business. While they obviously don't want negative publicity, running the perfect release party is not their top priority.


    Agree to disagree on what is the "best" way to release a limited-run beer.
  37. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    I don't actually think Firestone spreads it thin, at least around me it's pretty trivial to get a case of Abacus or Parabola if you want it.

    Regardless, sending your standards to far-flung markets is all well and good, since the brewery can make a shitton of them. I just think it's silly to send your special releases to the same markets. Like, Minnesota got two cases of Bramble, why even bother? CBS was the same story, why even distribute it to a state if you're going to have stores getting half a case? It seems like it just creates a headache for the brewery, for the distributor, for the retailer, and for the customer. If you're going to do that at least be like 50-50 and price according to the demand.

    But yeah, it looks like we basically agree to disagree.
  38. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    Definitely agree here.
  39. nanobrew

    nanobrew Dec 31, 2008 California

    In SoCal it can be harder to find. You could find it, but it sells quickly (24hrs) and it is relatively difficult to get close to a case. I think it is getting better, and I am not sure if it is FW that is not saturating it's local market or the distributor (which is known as a bad one)
  40. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    Well, before Levitation gets here, where IS Firestone's home market? Paso Robles isn't really in classical SoCal, which is more LA/SD (in my mind). It looks like it's about halfway between San Jose and LA, so for all I know they might think the Bay Area is their home market. Or their distributor sucks, who knows?
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