Hi all, I am finishing up my keezer (100% functional, just aesthetics left): And I bought my first sanke last weekend! Seven Saturdays IPA, I was so proud Anyways, I have been struggling with foam the whole week. I think I have multiple problems. Below is my environment: 1.) Inside keg (water glass with high-quality thermometer and a good wifi thermometer) both report 37 degrees. But when I pour the 2nd glass it's always over 38, more like 40-42. I lowered the temp inside the keezer to 34 (measured by the thermometers which both agree) gave it a day and the beer pours 38-39. Should I be calibrating based on the poured beer temp or the keezer temp? 2.) I have 11 foot, 3/16" vinyl beer lines with a 2 foot rise to the shanks, should be plenty of resistance. I read so many times not to cut too short that I thought this could not be too short. Could there be too much resistance? 3.) My PSI is set to 12 and I've kept that constant throughout this process. The CO2 tank is inside the keezer. 4.) My beer line is coiled on top of the keg without visible kinks. I still see some air gaps (several inches long) even after pouring 2 beers repeatedly. Should these lines be air gap free? Is this a problem or am I making it one? 5.) I pour into frosty mugs (sideways first). Is this preferred? I tried warm mugs too but it seemed worse foam than the frosty mug so I kept the frosty mugs. 6.) I have the Perlick 650 and I have tried to use the flow control to regulate foam. No luck. The issue is it usually is about 90% foam after the first pour. I watch the beer exiting the faucet and I see it kind of chugging along for a while (looks like its hitting those air gaps) then it pours mostly clear. The beer is not flat, but there are very few bubbles rising to the top when you look through the glass. After 2 pours (I'm assuming the warmer line beer is cleared) the foam does settle down, but the beer tastes flat with very little (if any) bubbles rising. Tulip glasses are less flat than pints, but my tulips are laser etched on the bottom which might be cheating. Thank you all in advance, I've read a lot of other kegging forums (which say so many different things...) I'm wondering what would be the next steps for the experts? Should I cut my beer lines (my instinct says no, but I'm running out of options...) Thanks again! Kyle
Couple things. Foam is caused by temperature differences and imbalance between pressure and temp. You potentially have both going on here. With properly balanced beer you will not have gaps in the line. Pouring a beer into a frosty mug will cause foam - a frosty mug from the freezer is 20 degrees, the beer isn’t. You also need to have consistent temps throughout the keeper right up to the shank. Do you have a fan? If not, Coiling the line on top of the keg keeps it warmer than the beer which is coming off the bottom of the keg. You should not need to be running at 34 degrees. How did you take the temp of the second pour? Should be pouring a beer into a room temp glass, pouring it off and pouring a second beer immediately. Take the temp of the liquid, not the foam.
Doh, so obvious. Thanks! I do not have a fan, but I can add one in the near future. I originally had the lines low to the floor to try and cool them but read that was worse since the beer would be falling and rising against gravity. Is this correct? Could I add some towels to try and trap cold air around the lines? The second pour I took with my thermoworks thermometer. It was the beer not foam, the foam does get better by the second beer, maybe 50% foam by then. I think the Inkbird probe that regulates the freezer is 4 or 5 degrees F off. My guess is that 5 gallons of beer takes a bit of time to cool down which is why I'm seeing these issues. But then I'm confused why when I lowered the temp to 38ish out of the faucet it was just as foamy? One more question, if the lines are having air gaps does that suggest the resistance is too high or the themperature is too different or neither? Sorry for all my questions, thank you for this help. First time doing this. I will try with a glass that is from the keezer next. Thanks again!
Whomever wrote about the beer having gravity problems going down 2’ and back up has no idea what they are taking about. Do not wrap the lines in anything. The gaps are indicative of CO2 breaking out of solution. This is because of a mismatch between temperature and applied pressure. Normally the gaps suggest pressure is too low, but in extreme cases it could be an over saturation of CO2 from the pressure being too high. Based on what you’ve posted I’d go with the former and add a few psi. This will take a day to take effect so don’t do anything else for 24 hrs. Do not use a glass from the keezer for doing temps. You need a room temp glass. Also opening and closing the keezer a lot is bad for the system, you’re letting all the cold air out.
A couple of tidbits about measuring temps: First calibrate your thermos...do this by making an ice slurry. That's a glass full of crushed ice/water (ice should fill glass completely). Dip your thermo and reading should be between 32 and 33. If your Inkbird has the normal ss tip then dip this in the ice slurry also. If it's off more than one degree you can program the error out of the reading. In all cases we are talking about beer temp. It's okay to leave a glass of water in keezer for a reference, but make all decisions based on beer temp. Just be aware the temp on the inside varies by position and will depend on a host of variables. Fans are good but I don't have one (don't need it). Lowering the beer line to middle or bottom can only help. As Doug said you have a temp/press imbalance...38° at 12psi and 11 feet through a Perlick should not give foam. So one or more of these readings are incorrect or have not stabilized yet. Also, confirm you are using real beer line and not some resistance-free vinyl (there's some out there). I'm guessing you use the glass of water for your Inkbird probe, correct?
Two feet of line means you probably have a foot or more in the un-refrigerated space. Which is not a tragedy, but you can expect some warm beer in that small part. The space right above the top of a chest freezer is fairly warmer than the freezer. For example, supermarkets have reach in frozen food coolers with food right up to the top and everything stays frozen, as long as the food does not go above the line. And there is sometimes a literal line that says "Do Not Place Food Above Line". So a decent AC fan will work wonders. Be sure the temp probe on your Inkbird is not resting on or too close to a cold coil. Wrapping the probe in bubble wrap can help if needed. The rest of it has been addressed. Personally, 11 feet of line is a lot of resistance. 12 psi on that length of line is difficult. Cheers
Thank you all for your wonderful guidance. I'm an idiot. Nope, probe was hanging in the air. It now has its own glass of water which dramatically improved its readout and is now within 0.5 degrees of the other thermometers. My head and my hand became great friends. After the weekend of not opening the lid (along with proper probe placement) I finally see what I was expecting at the start. The first few ounces of beer pours as coughing foam, which I dump. Followed by a pint of glory and a finger and a half of head! Beer temperature (drum roll please) 38 on the nose. To save those first ounces, I am planning on adding the fan also but that's a new post. Thank you all again, I tried this for a week on my own to no avail. Can't express how appreciative I am
Thank you, follow-up question... Would the beer inside the line lose any carbonation with this much resistance? Or does it take time for that to occur? Just trying to better understand what's happening inside the lines. Thanks again!
Long line slows the flow of the balanced beer, the breakout in a standing line is because of a mismatch in applied pressure and temp. Foam at the start of a pour is either from the standing line breakout coming to the faucet (burps as you described) or beer from a properly packed line seeing a temperature difference as it gets to the faucet (solid stream of foam). A bar would target filling a pint in around 8 seconds, I have 10 foot lines and give up a little on fill time to minimize turbulence. Bars pour off foam, I do not want to.
Yep. The part of the line that is in the unconditioned space is foaming because it is warm. AC Infinity fans are rock solid if you are looking to help out Jeff Bezos with a sale. You only need 50 cfm or so. Resist the urge to blast too much air, it will just exploit any gaps in the gasket seal. CO2 will break out of solution; cold liquid holds more gas. So in the keg, where it is 38, beer holds gas. In the line, warm, gas escapes, foam. But the gas does not disappear, it is just no longer in the liquid. The gas rises to the highest point in the line, usually a bend and there is your foam. Pour that foam and the beer that follows is from the keg, and you have a nice pour. Cheers
Thanks both. Tremendously helpful. I have an AC Infinity fan on the way. Found an old link billandsuz posted earlier. Got that one. Does it matter where I bracket it? Lid or collar? Pointing down correct?
You want to move cold air from the bottom to the top in the the area of the shanks. If it were me I’d put the fan in a project box on the floor with an outlet tube that is aimed directly on the shanks.
Wasn't trying to highlight anyone's mental sharpness...I keep my probe in the air with a diff of 7 and have good results. IMO, it's easier to monitor/regulate the air temp than a small amount of water in a glass (non-representative of beer volume). I have the fancy-dancy Inkbird but for the keezer I use an old-timey analog Ranco...probe is dangling in the air, temp is 35 with diff of 7 and beer temp moves less than 1°. But this all depends on where in keezer the probe is placed, it does involve some t&e which all new keezer owners go through. FWIW, you should be able to pour with zero excess foam. I did it without a fan but if you go that route by all means have it pushing air up. Remember it can take a day+ for temps to stabilize...think of how the tortoise beat the hare when troubleshooting. Good news is once dialed in you can just about go forever without touching the controls. You should also be aiming for using glasses at room temp (maybe rinsed with cool water). Save the frosted glasses for Coors.
