Beer Styles Have Finally Been Updated!

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, Sep 1, 2018.

  1. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,592) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff

    It's been ages since we've update our Beer Styles. In fact, I think that the last new style we added was American Black Ale and that was probably upwards of a decade ago. But with a ton of help from @Keene and @Rebecca, I'm stoked to announce that not only have we added some new styles, but we've recategorized, renamed, and refreshed all styles.

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/styles/

    What's Changed?
    • I had to create a new style editing tool that would allow us to easily add and edit beer styles. And now that we have it our styles should never get stagnant again.
    • Where appropriate, styles now have an origin prefix. In most cases it's a country, but region or city are also used. Assume "-style" applies to all listings outside of the origin prefix.
    • 2018 CraftBeer.com Beer Styles Guide were used to:
      • Build out style categories that are a bit more descriptive and consumer friendly.
      • Apply styles and descriptions that were missing.
      • Update ABV ranges.
      • Add IBU ranges.
    • Recommended glassware now focuses on a single glassware type.
    • Food and beer pairings, cellaring temps, and serving temps have been retired for now.
    • Your rating (if any) will now be displayed in style lists, however, you can't sort by the "Yours" column just yet.
    New Styles:
    We plan on periodically revisiting styles, tweaking things as needed, and have already identified a few more styles that'll be added soon.

    Beer Stats

    I've forced our daily beer stats script to run on the existing changes. This mostly impacts the Top Beer lists for beer styles, which will see a lot of activity until moving beers around has settled and the new IPA styles will no doubt be fun to watch.

    We Need Your Help! (Moving Beers)

    Speaking of moving beers around, I've been able to handle thousands beers with a script and logged the changes for reference. I'll probably hit the script a few more items, but we're going to need your help to suggest updates.

    If you see a beer that needs its style updated, simply go to the beer's page, click "Beer Tools," and then "Suggest Edit." And brewers who've claimed their page can self-edit their beers under the same tools.

    That's in in a nutshell. I've got some cleaning up to do over the weekend, but please let me know if you run into any major issues.

    In the meantime, enjoy the updates, please suggest edits as needed, and feel free to drop us any feedback that you might have.

    Cheers!
     
    RMW66, tylerstravis, Premo88 and 47 others like this.
  2. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Champion (802) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    It's great to have an update like this, I have a few thoughts on the matter:

    How about Kettle Sour and India Pale Lager styles? Especially Kettle Sour is something that's really needed in my opinion. It's a pretty popular and unique style that really doesn't have a lot in common with the traditional sour styles. Unless I'm missing something, I really don't have a choice but to enter a Kettle Sour as an American Wild Ale currently and that is just very very wrong.

    India Pale Lagers are somewhat less common/popular, but I've come across a few and almost all of those explicitedly labeled themselves as India Pale Lagers. They are basically very hoppy lagers that almost have more in common with an IPA, but are bottom-fermented. These don't really fit well into any current style category either.

    Do we really need the distinction between American Wild Ale and American Brett?

    Do we really need three new Porter categories?

    Berliner Weiße should definitely be listed under Wild / Sour Beers, not Wheat beers.

    I don't think the prefix "Leipzig" is needed for Gose. If anything, it should be "German" instead. "German Kölsch" is not listed as "Cologne Kölsch" either, is it? Neither is "German Altbier" as "Düsseldorf Altbier".
     
  3. THANAT0PSIS

    THANAT0PSIS Crusader (747) Aug 3, 2010 Wisconsin
    Trader

    Awesome!

    My one question would be will you be adding New England Imperial IPA and New England Pale Ale? They definitely exist as unique products and are well outside the ABV range you have listed for New England IPA. Just curious.

    I really like the "origin" tags.
     
  4. generallee

    generallee Poo-Bah (1,840) Apr 5, 2008 Virginia
    Premium

    Wow, I can't even imagine how much work you and your team have put into all the new features on the site. Looks like there are still a few tweaks to made but I am impressed. Thank you!
     
    RMW66, AlcahueteJ, SLeffler27 and 3 others like this.
  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,618) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    Was there ever a thought to create a Pale Oktoberfest beers style for beers like Weihenstephaner Festbier? These beers are pale in color and it appears they are presently under the Dark Lager category - this doesn't make sense.

    Cheers!
     
  6. beertunes

    beertunes Poo-Bah (5,324) Sep 24, 2007 Washington
    Trader

    IMHO, yes. Not all Brett beers are wild, and not all wild beers are Bretty.
     
    AllHopsMatter, pat61, LeRose and 7 others like this.
  7. beertunes

    beertunes Poo-Bah (5,324) Sep 24, 2007 Washington
    Trader

    So, now that we have these new styles, how do handle existing beers that were entered under the old guidelines? For example, now that Murkbro beers are a unique style, is there a process in place for moving all Hazebombs that were originally listed as "regular" IPAs over to the new style? Do we just go through our individual lists and send in updates, like we would if we saw a beer misclassified?
     
    meanmutt and kuhndog like this.
  8. Mothergoose03

    Mothergoose03 Poo-Bah (2,252) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    Premium

    You need to re-read the We Need Your Help section of Todd's post. He covers it there.
     
  9. bbtkd

    bbtkd Poo-Bah (2,000) Sep 20, 2015 South Dakota
    Premium

    I was at 102 of 104 styles, so I was a bit apprehensive to see where I landed after the change. Right now, I'm at 102 of 111. Still, after a few beers are changed to the new styles, I will have had several more of the new ones, though could lose another. In the end I expect all of the new ones will be easier to accomplish than the Sahti and Happoshu I am still lacking.

    While I still maintain that there are too damn many styles, it is unrealistic of me to expect any will ever go away. About as likely as the national debt being paid off.

    I gotta say, I do like the idea of the new categories - makes much more sense than by country as the old way leaned. Still - why not combine porter and stout since they are so closely related?
     
    #9 bbtkd, Sep 2, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
  10. DISKORD

    DISKORD Initiate (194) Feb 28, 2017 North Carolina

    No clue what American Brett is. Does it mean any beer (style) made with Brett?
     
  11. superspak

    superspak Poo-Bah (20,943) May 5, 2010 Michigan
    Premium Trader

    Glad to see that this is implemented finally, will take a LOT of work to edit styles into their respective category. I am going to say it right now, American Brett is going to be a pain in the ass to classify. I know of tons of breweries that use mostly Brett(Jolly Pumpkin comes to mind), but it is far from the only microbe in their beers. Also, I saw that Aunt Sally is in there as well, when it clearly states it is kettle soured right in the notes! There is no Brett in that beer at all!
     
    NeroFiddled and Snowcrash000 like this.
  12. ovaltine

    ovaltine Poo-Bah (2,174) Apr 6, 2010 Indiana
    Premium Trader

    I'm surprised to find that, per the "Styles" feature when we click on our "Beers," I've never had a "Black & Tan," yet I've certainly had Yuengling Black & Tan (a few times), and rated it here.

    Yet it's an American Porter.

    I'm flummoxed.

    Is there a tribunal I can appeal this to? I've always wanted to appeal something to a tribunal.
     
    ka6sox, strohme2, fehrminator and 2 others like this.
  13. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,592) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff

    This isn't a new style. It's been on the site for almost two decades, but we're working on removing it. One of many updates to follow.
     
    ovaltine likes this.
  14. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,592) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff

    You can use the "Beer Tools" located at the top of the beer page to suggest edits.
     
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  15. ovaltine

    ovaltine Poo-Bah (2,174) Apr 6, 2010 Indiana
    Premium Trader

    I see the tribunal is moving with considerable alacrity.
     
  16. superspak

    superspak Poo-Bah (20,943) May 5, 2010 Michigan
    Premium Trader

    Thanks. I know, and I do often. I was just wondering how it got there in the first place is all. :confused:
     
  17. Zorro

    Zorro Poo-Bah (4,259) Dec 25, 2003 California

    Suggests a style called "Asian Lager" be created.

    Beers like San Miguel and Tsingtao are certainly different from what is considered a Lager in the Western world.
     
    Hoppsbabo and rudzud like this.
  18. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,592) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff

    No doubt a byproduct of running a bulk script using keywords.
     
    superspak likes this.
  19. johnInLA

    johnInLA Crusader (764) Jun 12, 2005 California
    Premium

    While just my opinion: I do agree that the IPL has distinguished itself as a unique style. It has the dryness and crispness of a lager, with the bitterness and hoppiness of an Amercian IPA. And I often see brewers call their beer out as an "IPL"

    In my personal style listings ( which roughly mriror BA's ) I rate it as a distinct style
     
    BattleRoadBrewer likes this.
  20. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,592) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff

    Indeed. I've been chipping away at the style here and there today. It's now gone.
     
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  21. johnInLA

    johnInLA Crusader (764) Jun 12, 2005 California
    Premium

    Curious. What do you think distinguishes an Asian lager as a unique style verses a regional interpretation of an existing style.
     
    thesherrybomber likes this.
  22. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,592) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff

    We'll definitely consider it.
    We discussed this yesterday, but we'll revisit it.
    We'll revisit this once things settle down.
    It's been considered in the past. We can revisit this one, too.
     
  23. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Site Editor (7,344) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Premium Trader

    I tend to think that most of the kettle sours that I have been seeing hit the shelves are much closer to a fruited Berliner Weisse (or fruited Gose) than an American Wild Ale.
     
  24. rudzud

    rudzud Poo-Bah (5,255) Apr 28, 2010 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I'm just glad Happoshu didn't disappear. Tracking one of those down to get me the old 104/104 was incredibly difficult.
    Edit: Though I'm confused as to why I was 104/104 before..and now I'm 104/111. Looks like I lost some styles and gained some others.
     
    #24 rudzud, Sep 2, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
    Mikexw, puck1225 and FBarber like this.
  25. Pantalones

    Pantalones Devotee (431) Nov 14, 2014 Virginia

    So... why is it "Smoke [Porter/Beer]" rather than "Smoked [Porter/Beer]"? Seems like an awkward phrasing since basically all of the smoked beers I've seen or heard of describe themselves as "smoked," and the thing that separates them from other beers is the smoked malt.

    (I am glad to see Smoked Porter as its own style now, though! now if only I could find more of them...)
     
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  26. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Champion (802) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    This should be fairly straightforward? While Berliner Weiße is brewed with wheat, its defining characteristic is the sourness derived from lactobazillus and/or brett. Its flavour profile has absolutely nothing in common with a traditional wheat beer and it sticks out like a sore thumb in that category, to be honest.

    I would also suggest removing "and often served with a flavored syrup like Woodruff or raspberry" from the style description. This is something that's known as a Berliner Weiße "mit Schuss" in Germany and is a unique serving style that has nothing to do with a traditional Berliner Weiße and is commonly ridiculed as a silly custom by German craft brewers and enthusiasts.

    It was originally devised by bar owners to override the sourness with sweetness and make the beer more attractive to a wider audience by masking its most distinct feature.

    While I would agree that it is closer to a fruited Berliner Weiße considering the brewing process, I think it has really established itself as a unique style, so why should we categorize it as a differnent one here? I still think it's pretty wrong to enter a Kettle Sour as a Berliner Weiße as well, to be honest.
     
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  27. woodychandler

    woodychandler Poo-Bah (8,342) Apr 9, 2004 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    Gotta hand it to yinz on this one! I look forward to (re-)reading the descriptions as I CANtinue to review & rate to Style & NOT to personal Taste. I pretty much had the old one memorized.
     
  28. BenBreeg

    BenBreeg Meyvn (1,064) Mar 18, 2014 Belgium
    Premium Trader

    Great update ! I was waiting for this some time now, and finally...
    Thanks !
     
    Todd likes this.
  29. bbtkd

    bbtkd Poo-Bah (2,000) Sep 20, 2015 South Dakota
    Premium

    I thought that looked awkward too, though if you think about it, it's fruit beer, not fruited beer. I think the difference is that smoke can be a verb, so it seems natural to expect the "ed". So - is it a verb or noun?
     
  30. Mothergoose03

    Mothergoose03 Poo-Bah (2,252) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    Premium

    If additional consideration for this list is still being given to suggestions made in this thread, how about in the Wheat Beer category is a German Weiss or Weissbier? I'm not an expert on German styles, but it seems like this style was listed on most beer lists during my trip to Germany last year. Or should it be a lager category? German style 'experts' can chime in here on that question.
     
  31. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Champion (802) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    Weißbier and Hefeweizen are one and the same thing. It's just that Weißbier is the prefered nomenclature in Bavaria.
     
  32. Mothergoose03

    Mothergoose03 Poo-Bah (2,252) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    Premium

    Good to know. I drank some weissbiers that didn't have the yeasty esters, so I never connected them to hefes. Thanks for the clarification.
     
  33. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Champion (802) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    Untappd simply labels such beers as "Sour - Fruited", which seems fitting to me. To be more in line with BA style naming conventions it could be called "American Fruit Sour", I guess?

    Also, and I hate to be so anal about this, but to stay in line with the current style naming conventions, "Berliner Weisse" should be changed to "German Berliner Weisse". This is not a redundancy as "Berliner" is actually part of the official style name here and not a prefix. As opposed to Leipzig Gose, by the way.
     
    #33 Snowcrash000, Sep 2, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
    Beersnake1 likes this.
  34. BalancingBrooms

    BalancingBrooms Disciple (392) Aug 22, 2013 Louisiana

    Is the american brett category for beers only fermented with brett?
     
  35. superspak

    superspak Poo-Bah (20,943) May 5, 2010 Michigan
    Premium Trader

    I would like a better definition of this style as well. There are plenty of Brett fermented IPAs listed as American IPAs, but have skewed ratings because of the funky/peppery Brett character. I've always noted this character and scored accordingly in my reviews. @Todd what do you think? Should Brett IPAs be placed under the American Brett category?
     
  36. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,592) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff

    It would make the most sense right now, and there are 78 that can be moved automagically.
     
  37. DISKORD

    DISKORD Initiate (194) Feb 28, 2017 North Carolina

    I don't think there's a need for both styles: Robust Porter and American Porter. Needs to be just one of them. I also see a lot of beers under American Porter that belong in Imperial Porter category. And I don't think there's a need for American Light Lager either. Those beers are just fine under AAL.
     
    #37 DISKORD, Sep 2, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
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  38. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,592) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff

    Shoutout to @dbrauneis for crushing edits this morning. Hundreds of suggested style edits have been made since the update and the queue is empty.
     
  39. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Site Editor (7,344) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Premium Trader

    My thoughts on styles I would like to see considered for addition to the site are:
    1. New England Imperial IPA
    2. New England Pale Ale
    3. Kettle Sour
    4. Fruited Sour
    5. Milkshake IPA
    6. Radler/Shandy
     
  40. Claude-Irishman

    Claude-Irishman Aspirant (283) Jun 4, 2015 New Jersey

    My bother in law used to be a cop in London in the seventies. He always told me a shandy was 7-up and beer. 50/50
     
    ovaltine likes this.