BJCP judges of foreign styles

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by herrburgess, Jun 6, 2013.

?

Should BJCP judges of foreign styles be req. to have consumed those beers in their orig. settings?

  1. Yes

    4 vote(s)
    12.5%
  2. No

    28 vote(s)
    87.5%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Just as the title reads: should BJCP judges of foreign styles be required to have consumed those beers in their original setting(s)? Is such a thing an integral part of a beer drinker's -- not to mention a beer judge's -- education and palate development? Or is U.S. craft brewing partially "immune" to such scrutiny, as (home)brewers should not necessarily be trying to recreate the originals but are instead brewing interpretations that are necessarily subject to some degree of difference?
     
  2. MMAJYK

    MMAJYK Initiate (0) Jun 26, 2007 Georgia

    So, are you saying just because I haven't had a Hefe in Germany, or a Tripel in Belgium, I shouldn't be able to judge them? If that's the case, then I think the answer is a big, outstanding, no. Hopefully I'm missing something here or not fully understanding the question.
     
  3. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Would a German who has only had a U.S. craft DIPA such as Heady Topper or Pliny after it was shipped trans-Atlantic be in a position to judge that style in a competition accurately and/or fairly?

    EDIT: and to be fair, I was thinking more of styles such as Helles, Rauchbier, Koelsch, Alt, etc. -- i.e. styles that aren't bottle conditioned and don't survive age and/or transportation well at all and/or are frequently served by gravity from the wooden barrel in their original setting(s). UK cask and many classic Czech styles fit these conditions as well.
     
  4. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    The BJCP is comprised of volunteers from all walks of life. It helps to have been to England, Belgium, Germany, and the Check Republic, but should it be required? I think not. There is no requirement for the Homebrewers entering the competitions to have that life experience so that they can brew their beers.

    Edit - to really nail a home brewed examples of the ones you give takes a while.
     
  5. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    I understand that the homebrewers shouldn't be required to have those experiences, but if the judges don't, how will they give proper guidance? How will the homebrewers be educated about the styles as they are actually brewed, consumed, and enjoyed?
     
  6. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    If this were a requirement you'd have a lot of categories/subs being excluded from competitions.
    Hell' some comps have problems filling tables with BJCP certified judges at all, let alone world travelled ones.
     
  7. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Some of the best judges I know are not flush with money, and can't afford travel to Europe. They do have good palates and give good feedback. As for good feedback on some of the examples you state, they have to rely on good bottled examples. I have brought back fresh Rauchbier and Alts, given them to ranked judges, and changed their perceptions on what those beers should be.
     
  8. MMAJYK

    MMAJYK Initiate (0) Jun 26, 2007 Georgia

    I guess I don't know a good cigar because I've never been to Cuba, and don't know how to appreciate good pasta since I've never been to Italy. I'm sorry, but this question ridiculous.

    I'm guessing a certain style you brew doesn't get the points or awards you want it to get from BJCP comps? Just trying to figure out where a question like this would even come from?
     
    FarmerTed likes this.
  9. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    If the objective was to clone a particular beer, then it might make sense. But a homebrew is the brewer's take on a style, generally not an attempt to duplicate something. The question is meaningless.
     
    herrburgess and MMAJYK like this.
  10. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    I didn't say you -- or any consumer -- wouldn't know a good cigar because you haven't been to Cuba (nor a good German beer because you haven't been to Germany); rather, to use your analogy, I asked if someone is in the best position to be a judge and/or educator on Cuban Cohibas if s/he has never had one (in good condition or at all).
     
  11. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    What if a brewer has only had 1 or 2 versions (i.e. the ones available here) of a style that derives its core characteristics from dozens of versions at the source (e.g. Kellerbier, Koelsch, Alt, Rauchbier)? By default, then, homebrewers may be inadvertently attempting to "clone" certain styles if they are basing their takes on just a small sampling of a much more widely spread style. It's not as simple a matter as people are making it out to be here, IMO.
     
  12. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Scott, think about how many Americans have been to Germany. Then think about how many have been to Bamberg. Then how many American Homebrewers that have been to Bamberg, let alone BJCP judges.

    I think it would be great if more could get there, but not everyone can. I know plenty that want to carpool to go to a competition to judge in the same state to conserve on funds.
     
  13. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    I understand the hypothetical at work here. But are we doing the styles a disservice by judging them based on such loose criteria? Or, as I asked before, would it be doing a disservice to the American DIPA style to have a panel made up of people who had never had a fresh Pliny/Heady/more than 3 versions judging them?
     
  14. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    Yes, it is. A brewer generally has had an example or two or three of the style he's brewing. He brews his own version of that style, tweaking it to his liking, while trying not to venture too far outside the lines. Thus, his Czech Pilsner doesn't taste exactly like Budvar. Does that mean it's not a good interpretation of a Czech Pilsner? I would go so far as to suggest that most brewers wouldn't bother brewing at all if their goal was simply to replicate a commercial brew.
     
  15. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    But don't "quantitative changes become qualitative changes" as a result of such "tweaks" and, in fact, end up resulting in "new" styles such as "American Pale Lager," "American Wheat," and "American Wild"? If so, is this not a result -- and a cause -- of doing a disservice to the original styles? IMO, it is.
     
  16. sergeantstogie

    sergeantstogie Initiate (0) Nov 16, 2010 Washington

    In a perfect world, sure. Sounds like you are passionate (and I know you are) enough about this to maybe organize a competition that would be satisfactory to you. I could definitely see it being a big deal to a good number of homebrewers and a chance to get some of the big names from those places over to the US once a year. Maybe...Masters of Authentic Styled Homebrew (M*A*S*H) TM Jared Wharton aka sergeantstogie
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  17. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,313) Nov 20, 2005 England
    Pooh-Bah

    It's not realistic though highly desirable.
    What should be the case is that the writers of style guidelines should have a wide experience of drinking those beers they write about.As it stands these guidelines remind me of a travel guide written by someone who's never left home.Say a minimum of a year spent travelling around drinking the local brews before putting pen to paper.
    Even then it's going to be difficult. I've been drinking milds for upwards of 50 years and tried a few.Ask me though to define the style-if indeed it's a style-and I wouldn't know where to begin.This very problem cropped up at our last CAMRA meeting when we were discussing this year's mild trail and nobody else was any the wiser.The BCJP guidelines are no help : " May have evolved as one of the elements of early porters." is sheer claptrap, mild was an ale and porter a beer i.e. made by different brewers , mild was always pale and porter of course wasn't .
    How can someone with superficial experience write a definitive guide?
    I won't even begin to mention Scotland because the shredders would be working overtime on those guidelines.
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  18. DrewBeechum

    DrewBeechum Pooh-Bah (1,954) Mar 15, 2003 California
    Pooh-Bah

    I live in the second largest city in the US. I'm part of one of the biggest clubs (and definitely the oldest) in America. We still have trouble getting more than 75 butts in seats on judging day. I'm not about to reduce those numbers even further.

    What usually happens though, is we get enough guys who are madly passionate about their little corner of the world and pair them with other judges. Judging is as much a learning experience as a masterful delivery of judging knowledge.

    The other wrinkle: Since the organizer don't know what judges will be available before they open entry registration, they an't in advance remove categories that they won't have judges for. What do they do with those entries?
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  19. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
    Pooh-Bah

    It's pretty obvious that none of those who wrote the guidelines have ever tried a 60/- brewed in Scotland. If they had, they might be able to get little things like the colour right.
     
    herrburgess likes this.
  20. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

    Sounds a lot like Kellerbier. Now that I think more about it, if the BJCP folks were to explore such styles extensively, they'd likely end up creating a dozen or more sub-styles, seeing as how these beers can be so radically different from version to version. Maybe it's better to just let sleeping dogs lie....
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.