Black Lives Matter @BeerAdvocate

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, Jun 1, 2020.

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  1. mhucker28

    mhucker28 Initiate (47) Apr 24, 2020 California
    Trader

    You are referring to economic privilege, which is linked to white privilege, but are not the same thing.
     
  2. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,454) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    So you agree you’re oversimplifying things?
     
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  3. CB_Michigan

    CB_Michigan Initiate (141) Sep 4, 2014 Illinois

    I can understand why it might feel like an attack when someone uses that term, and nobody likes to feel accused of engaging in prejudicial behavior. I do, however, think it's important to discuss both sides of the coin when it comes to unequal treatment. There is mistreatment and oppression of some ethnicities on one side, but there is also an elevation of White people (speaking generally) and benefits that sometimes come at the expense of others. Here are some examples (all involving African-American friends of mine):

    - Went to a friend's office after lunch, I walked to the elevators while he was called back and asked to show his ID badge. He's worked there for 4 years.

    - In my daughter's first week of school, I got an email about therapy services. My friend has to call the same school every year and it's a struggle to even get her son evaluated.

    - In grad school, I'd be talking with one of my profs in his office and students would regularly stop by and address me instead of him.

    - I was fixing my car in our alley one night. Cop leaned out his window, asked what was wrong and gave me some helpful tips. My friend was under his car with the garage open and two squad cars zoom in with lights and sirens and order him to drop everything and "slowly roll out with his palms open."

    - I was pulling weeds after curfew this weekend and several cop cars drove right by. My neighbor took his dog out and within 15 seconds, there's flashing lights in front of his house and I hear the "er-er" bullhorn sound.

    I get the benefit of the doubt, people automatically assume I'm the authority figure, and my concerns are given more weight than those of my African-American friends. I am free to live my life without worrying about being falsely arrested or beat or shot by the police. Sometimes White Privilege is not obvious until you've personally experienced/witnessed this kind of disparity.
     
  4. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Aspirant (205) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    They might not feel "privilege" overall, which is a result of severe class inequality, not because of their lack of white privilege. And whether they feel privileged or not does not have a bearing on whether they possess it.
     
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  5. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Aspirant (205) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    Did you mean to reply to me?... I'm not sure how this applies to my comment you replied to.
     
  6. mhucker28

    mhucker28 Initiate (47) Apr 24, 2020 California
    Trader

    The protests that are occurring are linked specifically to racial discrimination, which is the topic of this here thread. You are bringing in economic factors that, while they may play a part, are not the reason for the protests. You are trying to bring the focus of a very particular issue elsewhere, and all that does is try to delegitimize the actual focus of these protests. You are essentially attending a breast cancer awareness fundraiser and going on about how prostate cancer kills people too. Sure, but that's not why we are here. Let's address this first.
     
  7. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,414) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    Well we’re all a product of where we live I suppose. Peace, but there’s so many variables here, so things shoot off course a bit. I’m older than most here, so this stuff isn’t new, in the late 60s it was pretty shitty, cities literally on fire. But we survived that, we will here as well, hopefully we come out better than where we started.
     
  8. dtv2001

    dtv2001 Initiate (110) Jul 26, 2003 Rhode Island

    Bravo Todd! Very well said.
     
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  9. CB_Michigan

    CB_Michigan Initiate (141) Sep 4, 2014 Illinois

    I'm not going to argue about poverty being crippling but let's consider a hypothetical involving two young men:
    One is White and from an impoverished area of Appalachia.
    The other is African-American from a working-class Chicago neighborhood.
    Both are really bright and bust their a**es off to get into a decent college, Notre Dame let 's say.
    Who is going to get more of the benefit of the doubt? Who is less likely to get harassed by the campus or South Bend police? Who is going to be watched more closely by the security guard at Best Buy?
    That's what many of us mean by White Privilege. Poor white kids in Appalachia (or wherever) can overcome their upbringing, escape poverty, and carve a new path or identity for themselves. African-American kids, no matter how hard they work or how accomplished they are, cannot escape the possibility that a bad 9-1-1 call or misunderstanding will lead to them being killed.
     
  10. I_Have_The_Runs

    I_Have_The_Runs Initiate (41) Nov 19, 2018 Illinois

    Eddie Murphy brought it to our attention 35 years ago.

     
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  11. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Aspirant (205) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    Just to clarify... do you have a little better picture of the term "white privilege" and how it applies even to poor white people, now? Saying that someone has "white privilege" is not saying that they are "in general more privileged than all others," it is saying simply that they enjoy X privileges on account of their race. This leg up may mean that overall they have had many advantages, or it may be one of the few advantages they have been afforded.
     
    #251 William_Navidson, Jun 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
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  12. mhucker28

    mhucker28 Initiate (47) Apr 24, 2020 California
    Trader

    I mean, how much more likely is a black man going to be pulled over for simply driving a nice car than a white man? Both men could have been born into the same economic privilege as the other, but the racial inequality will still set them apart.
     
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  13. Longhorn08

    Longhorn08 Aspirant (244) Feb 4, 2014 Texas
    Trader

    I agree.

    There was a time when we said “I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it”

    today we have “if you don’t agree with my point of view then YOU are a fascist!”
     
  14. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,454) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    Bullshit. Blacks are disproportionately economically disadvantaged as well. By bringing this up how the fu*k am I delegitimizing anything?
     
  15. mhucker28

    mhucker28 Initiate (47) Apr 24, 2020 California
    Trader

    Look, if you can't see the difference, then I suggest you educate yourself as I have been trying to do as a privileged white male in these times.
     
  16. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,454) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    That doesn’t answer my question. Saying blacks are disproportionally killed by police is woke,but saying poor black men are disproportionally Killed by police makes me a fascist sexist white guy? Got it.
     
  17. mhucker28

    mhucker28 Initiate (47) Apr 24, 2020 California
    Trader

    oof...this ain't it man. Perhaps direct your anger to a more worthy cause than the BA forums.
     
  18. grilledsquid

    grilledsquid Zealot (568) Jul 10, 2009 California
    Trader

    You seem to be pushing this narrative that socioeconomic status/class is the root factor of the problems discussed in this thread. The problem with that concept is that it ignores the influence of implicit bias and systemic racism--more specifically the problematic culture in police forces. You're essentially absolving the police force of any wrongdoing and assigning all the blame to individual level actions. You need to disentangle class from race in order to understand the unjust killings of black folks at the hands of cops.
     
  19. tzieser

    tzieser Meyvn (1,156) Nov 21, 2006 New Jersey
    Trader

    One thing that really pisses me off, and I say this as a "person of color" (speaking of which: i fucking hate tribalism; i absolutely should not have to identify the fact i am "not white" in order to justify my opinion or perspective), is when white people try to boil down a very complex sociopolitical situation to rudimentary catch-all phrase like "all cops are bastards" or "if you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem". It is truly insulting to me and is, in my opinion, very detrimental to the progress that we are all striving to achieve.

    My cousin is a dark skinned (Latina) officer in New York, she has had to deal with more fucking bullshit these past few days than her most her her life growing up in the Bronx dealing with racism on a semi-daily basis. She, along with her fellow dark-skinned officers, are being unjustly persecuted in the court of public opinion. The racism, implicit bias which is occurring from white people who are supposedly "not racist" or "down with the cause" is extremely nauseating to me. These are the same very same pricks who are inciting riots, throwing bricks and purposefully distracting from a just and righteous protest. These sort of folks don''t care about fixing the problem, they just want to see our country torn apart. Nihilists and anarchists are trying to divide this country even further. They don't want us to live together; they want chaos and disorder and nothing more. These type of people make my blood boil. My grandfather endured years of racism (most shocking was when he was promptly told to leave a US Army dinner in GA, while in his full dress uniform, because they "don't serve their kind"...[thankfully a few of his white comrades saw this injustice and joined him in leaving the dinner]), fought for our freedoms against the Japanese WW2 and yet now these pricks want to destroy everything he fought for and everything he believed in. He loved this country with all his heart and now a small group of morons basically want to destroy his legacy. Fuck all of those people.


    TL;DR: now's not the time for white people to tell people what racism is and isn't. You guys don't know. You think you do because you've read some books and heard some podcasts, but you don't. Now's the time stfu and let people of color to let their voices be heard, whether you like it or not.
     
  20. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,454) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    https://psmag.com/news/police-are-m...n-poorer-more-highly-segregated-neighborhoods
    or
    https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/09/12...-one-us-city-hurts-black-and-poor-communities
    This is not an either or situation. Our economic situation is inherently racist. We should be moving forward to end them, but society will never overcome them if we continue to address them as separate issues.
     
  21. grilledsquid

    grilledsquid Zealot (568) Jul 10, 2009 California
    Trader

    I agree that socioeconomic status is linked. It's what's known as a social determinant. We can discuss its effects on health outcomes, educational attainment, etc. It can even lead to disproportionate policing on low income communities as your links suggest. I don't think anyone's contesting that claim.

    The topic of this thread, however, is about the unjust killings of black folks at the hands of cops. Basically modern lynchings. We can discuss the individual actions that led to the police confrontation in a different post if you like, but the outcome of such a confrontation should not result in death, but that's what's happening. There's so much evidence of this, I'm surprised it's even up for discussion.

    Also, since some folks are likely going to pull an ad-hom, I speak as a POC who's had to deal with implicit bias my whole life.
     
  22. grilledsquid

    grilledsquid Zealot (568) Jul 10, 2009 California
    Trader

    I do agree that white folks should take more time to listen to POC voices. In this particular niche interest of craft beer and given the demographics of the industry, I'm going to guess we wouldn't see much activity in this thread if we were to impose the limitations you suggest. I welcome anyone who wants to be an ally.
     
    #262 grilledsquid, Jun 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
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  23. traction

    traction Zealot (561) Dec 4, 2010 Georgia
    Society Trader

    I have absolutely no interest in debating this point so I will not however you might find this article interesting as it is relevant to the point you are making; I think you may take something useful from it:

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/05/25/is-capitalism-racist

    Anyway, best wishes to everyone in these turbulent times.

    There is a discussion to be had on this topic but BA is not that place imo. Much love to everyone here. I love BA because in general color isn't an issue unless we are arguing about how hazy some beer should be.
     
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  24. Shanex

    Shanex Poo-Bah (1,588) Dec 10, 2015 France
    Moderator Society Trader

    Entirely agreed. His post wouldn’t bother me that much if it wasn’t for « White people dunno shit and should STFU » which, frankly is a tad over the top and hardly a call for unity.
     
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  25. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (2,871) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Moderator Society Trader

    I would agree that there are forces out there whose sole intent is to divide the populace and focus on people's differences rather than solidarity, but I'm not sure if it's "anarchists and nihilists" who are the driving forces behind this.

    Divide et impera.

    [​IMG]
     
  26. tzieser

    tzieser Meyvn (1,156) Nov 21, 2006 New Jersey
    Trader


    I just used anarchists and nihilists as an example because it was the first thing to come to mind when it comes lawlessness. I know it isnt BLM or the associated groups who want to see their cities burn. Clearly it is a group that does not want improvement, they want demolition. The fact that, in many cases, white people are the ones throwing rocks at businesses in a black community speaks volumes. I'll just leave it at that.
     
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  27. tzieser

    tzieser Meyvn (1,156) Nov 21, 2006 New Jersey
    Trader

    That's cool. You do you. If you think your friends and family are bastards because they wanted to be a public safety officer then so be it. I'm blessed enough to love my entire family regardless of their profession (yes, even you, Jack...get a job you losah! )
     
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  28. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,414) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    No, sorry they can’t escape it any easier from WVa than they can escape from say Detroit. My wife’s family is from Monanga WVA and she was born there, for most there’s no easy way out regardless of race. When your buried your kinda buried.
     
  29. SomethingClever

    SomethingClever Poo-Bah (3,395) Feb 22, 2013 Ohio
    Society

    Chris Rock sums it up nicely for everyone arguing that’s not how poverty stricken white people feel they don’t feel privilege. Starting about the 2:05 mark, but the whole bit is quite true.
     
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  30. keithmurray

    keithmurray Meyvn (1,379) Oct 7, 2009 Connecticut


    That was a long winded way of saying "I don't understand exactly what the term White Priviledge means"

    I will try to help you out on this one as best I can.
    It means that in a country that is majority white and tailored for whites, your skin color is not an impediment as you try to go about your daily life. If you get pulled over by a cop, you dont have to worry if it is because you are white. If you get turned down for that job, you dont have to worry if it is because you are white. If your neighbors are hostile towards you, you dont have to worry if it is because you are white. If your co workera question how you got your position or question your intelligence you dont have to ask is it because you are white. If you get followed in the store, you do t have to question if it is because you are white.

    Hope this makes sense.....
     
  31. algebeeric_topology

    algebeeric_topology Devotee (484) Dec 30, 2014 New York
    Trader

    In the interest of staying on topic and clarifying what you mean as it pertains to this topic, are you saying that there are no ways nearly all white people benefit in society? Would you say that you disagree entirely with ALL of the ways white people don't experience discomfort due to their race that I posted? I'm not asking if you disagree with the phrasing or use of the word "privilege," but if you disagree with the idea/observation that being white is beneficial in a variety of ways.
     
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  32. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Initiate (149) Jun 21, 2014 Oregon

    Talking about one specific aspect of privilege is not the same as oversimplifying.
     
  33. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Initiate (149) Jun 21, 2014 Oregon

    People who disagree that fascism is bad are fascists, tho. QED.
     
  34. REVZEB

    REVZEB Poo-Bah (7,192) Mar 28, 2013 Illinois
    Society

    As the resident Rev of BA let me say unequivocally: thank you Todd and black lives matter!
     
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  35. draheim

    draheim Poo-Bah (2,781) Sep 18, 2010 Washington
    Society

    I think that just reflects the utter anger people are feeling right now. A lot of this thread is essentially a bunch of privileged white guys (myself included), whether they want to admit that or not, talking about race in a very removed, academic way. What I’m hearing from people of color is that they don’t really give a fuck if this makes you uncomfortable, and we just need to shut up and listen for once. This is a daily lived experience for millions of people and they don’t need to explain it or justify it to you or anyone else. They aren’t looking for your approval. That’s what I’m getting from the voices I’m hearing these days, including @tzieser (and I am NOT trying to speak for anyone, this is just what I’m hearing). It’s not a call to unity. It’s a call for an immediate and permanent end to this shit.
     
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  36. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,414) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    Being white is imo obviously an advantage, but there are limitations there too. If you live in rural WVa, or Ky, MS I doubt you’ll feel that privilege. But yes as a kid who grew up middle class in suburban Philly you bet, it’s there. Depends on where you live here too, it’s a variable.
     
  37. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,454) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    I agree with your statement, however when the majority of the people are saying this is the only part of the argument we can have and if you think anything differently plays into this you are a fascist it makes it very difficult to take some of these people seriously. That myopic view of racism in America is absolutely over simplified.
     
  38. thesherrybomber

    thesherrybomber Disciple (397) Jun 13, 2017 California
    Society Trader

    That's sort of the definition of privilege: you're unaware you have it. But take a rural white person from those places, stick them in an airport, and they're not being targeted as terrorists/gang members/illegal immigrants, simply because they're the "right" color of Americans. They've faced the worst oppression from... fellow whites!
     
  39. Sturgeon83

    Sturgeon83 Disciple (312) Mar 11, 2015 Kentucky
    Trader

    What you're talking about here is class inequality, which absolutely has disproportionately affected Appalachia more than other areas. But that exists separate and simultaneous to White Privilege.
     
  40. tzieser

    tzieser Meyvn (1,156) Nov 21, 2006 New Jersey
    Trader

    Couldn’t have said it any better (in fact, I did not say it any better lol).

    Saying “white people shut up” does not mean I don’t care for their opinion or value them as a human. It just means now is not the time. White people may have sympathy or empathy for the problems this country has been facing but it is just factually impossible to actually live a day in the shoes of a colored person therefore you should consider shelving your opinion or viewpoint on the subject since you have know firsthand knowledge of what it’s like to not get a job, not get a rise, not getting picked for the team, getting the B when rest of your group got an A, not getting accepted to the better college, getting arrested at a house party when all of your white friends got let go; I could go on for days.


    Just do more listening, less talking. That’s all I meant. Cheers, all.
     
    #280 tzieser, Jun 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
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