Black Lives Matter @BeerAdvocate

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, Jun 1, 2020.

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  1. mhucker28

    mhucker28 Initiate (47) Apr 24, 2020 California
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    Nobody called you a fascist dude. When you are arguing about economic inequalities being just as important, you are arguing that an effect of a problem is just as important as the cause. The cause is systemic racism and before you can solve economic inequalities from racism, you must combat the systemic racism first. Nobody is saying it isn't important or that it doesn't need to be discussed, but we first need to address the underlying issue here.
     
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  2. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (2,957) Mar 12, 2009 New York
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    Choose 100 white people at random and ask them if they would prefer to have been born black to being born white and it will be obvious how simple it is.
     
  3. algebeeric_topology

    algebeeric_topology Devotee (484) Dec 30, 2014 New York
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    Thank you for seeing whiteness and you're totally right. There are limitations and that some might not feel that privilege as much as others, but there are still ways it exists, even in those situations. I spent time growing up in a poor upstate New York, an area that was recovering from and feeling the effects of paper industry that fled, but also paling in comparison to the poverty throughout Appalachia. People don't know that about me unless I volunteer it. That's one aspect of my white privilege.

    My family members own guns and hunt. People don't know that about me unless I volunteer it and it that could get me out of a lot of conversations when issues of gun ownership arise. I don't have to start an interaction with the assumptions people might make about that background. That's my white privilege.

    Also by comparing white people from WVa to people outside WVa we (myself included!) are still missing the point. We should be asking what is white privilege in the context of living in WVa. This article gets at addressing that.

    https://www.100daysinappalachia.com...palachia-race-white-privilege-denial-america/

    The article aims to address some differences in experience due to race while still admitting, "To be sure, that poverty is genuine, and the claim it places on our conscience and the need for serious public efforts to address it are both absolutely real. Millions of white folks (and not only in Appalachia) are hurting due to deindustrialization and economic shifts that have worked to enrich mostly the top 0.1 percent at the expense of the rest of us."
     
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  4. TrojanRB

    TrojanRB Poo-Bah (1,566) Jul 27, 2013 California
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    People are confusing police brutality with racial discrimination.

    A cop killed a person in custody. That’s police brutality.

    [Hypothetical] A white cop kills a white person in custody. That’s police brutality.

    A white cop killed a black person in custody. That’s police brutality. Is it racial discrimination? No, not necessarily. Did the cop treat him differently because of his skin? Not sure. Has the media treated it differently? Most definitely.

    Correlation and causation are not the same thing.
     
  5. algebeeric_topology

    algebeeric_topology Devotee (484) Dec 30, 2014 New York
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    I'm not sure I understand you correctly and I don't want to get it wrong. Are you saying we're just all confused by language and that the protests aren't about any of

    a. disproportionate use of deadly force by police towards black Americans, especially unarmed
    b. consistent lack of police accountability for their use of deadly force when black Americans are the victim
    c. differences in the way black victims of deadly force are treated by the media

    Thanks in advance for any clarification you give!
     
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  6. Cfahooligan

    Cfahooligan Initiate (123) Mar 19, 2001 California

    People here are falsely equating financial security with white privilege. While they do often go hand in hand, the whole my family is dirt poor from WVA is a major distraction and not what any of this is about. You are not in danger of getting shot simply for walking around. And I don't want to hear your but what about me and my extraordinary circumstances that's outside of the norms of white privilege. You don't get profiled the second you walk into a Sephora or a corner store. You don't get pegged as a bad tipper the second you walk into a bar. Profiled, stalked, and killed like Trayvon Martin. Or pulled over and shot like Philando Castile despite complying. You all know this and are needlessly dragging this out just to find creative ways to say ALL Lives Matter or what about me and my feelings? It's not about you right now. I really want a lot of this shit to stop and stop being so offended that we chose to stand up for people who are dead and can't have a say or a voice anymore. We respect everyone here. But right now it's not about you. It really shouldn't be confusing or offensive to you and it shouldn't be that controversial that we want innocent people to stop dying. And we want marginalized people to be better taken care of and have a bigger presence and voice around here. Enough with the what if's and false equivalencies that outright ignore the power structure of our society or culture, and our country. There are plenty of books to read, plenty of activists to follow, plenty of videos to watch if you need a better perspective on the subject. Right now we are focused on the issues at hand and we respect black lives. We want to open this place up as a more welcoming environment.
     
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  7. jdimento

    jdimento Aspirant (292) Jun 5, 2014 Texas
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    you literally lost me in the first sentence where you said you avoid things
     
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  8. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,414) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
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    My dad was a cop when I was growing up, my whole life was cops and families. But 1962 America policing wasn’t paramilitary, it was public service, my dad never ever had to pull his weapon. Problem is today IMO that police in general are undertrained and unprepared to serve in this capacity in a world that’s a bit insane. They’re not military but they’re put into situations they’re not capable of handling, often alone. I’m Marine, we worked in teams we all had backup, we were well trained and well armed. You always have to have a battle buddy, it keeps you level, your not alone and two heads are definitely better than one. In most places it’s budget problem, but no one should ever be alone. Leadership and training are paramount to success and avoids the fuck up in MN. With so many complaints against that guy he should have been long gone as unsuitable.
     
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  9. SierraNevallagash

    SierraNevallagash Champion (800) Sep 23, 2018 Maine
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    I'm sorry you had difficulty following along. I'm sure you'll get better at it. Keep your head up!
     
  10. ChicagoJ

    ChicagoJ Meyvn (1,384) Feb 2, 2015 Illinois
    Society Trader

    My heart goes out to all the small businesses which were destroyed (hopefully the list doesn’t continue to grow), but especially minority owned businesses.

    Below is a link to an interview with George Daniels, who as a young man opened a record store on Chicago’s West Side after the 1968, and recently a liquor depot sadly destroyed over this weekend.

    https://wgntv.com/news/george-floyd...go-liquor-store-looted-destroyed-amid-unrest/

    @Todd posted a thread highlighting African-American owned breweries as a website resource earlier today. I’ve been fortunate to enjoy great beers at 18th Street located in NW Indiana (their Hunted series is excellent, they have other great pours as well). I plan on using Todd’s list to prioritize other great breweries on future road trips.

    Supporting minority owned businesses like George’s and Drew Fox’s (18th Street Brewing) is one small but vital step we can all take to provide valuable support to communities which have been devoid of such help throughout history.

    There are many other ways we as a society can and should help, but I will limit my post to what we can do as beer advocates and thoughtful consumers.
     
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  11. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,454) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
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    By that logic there would be no poor white people. I assure you that's not the case.
    I digress. @Snowcrash000 nailed it. This is another situation that is being manipulated into social control. Nobody here has said they are pro racism. Yet we are all arguing like idiots. Meanwhile the fascists perpetuating this culture continue on.
     
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  12. Hoos78

    Hoos78 Aspirant (280) Mar 3, 2015 Ohio

    Thank you, @Todd for doing your best to get our little corner of the internet on the right side of history. Our world has been flipped on its axis over the last couple of months due to Covid-19. Over the last week or so it has flipped on another axis. We have seen similar circumstances in the past following incidents of police brutality directed at African Americans, but this feels much, much different.

    While I hope violence and destruction cease going forward, I hope the intensity of this movement continues in every other positive way. There are many, many influential people and decision makers that are saying the absolute right things in ways they have not before. Yes, there are plenty of mealy-mouthed statements flying around to insulate precious “brands”, but there are also many direct and well thought out statements that cut directly to the quick of this cancer. Let’s do the work to make sure that our protests in 50 years are organized for some other indignity.
     
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  13. thesherrybomber

    thesherrybomber Disciple (397) Jun 13, 2017 California
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    To be fair, I'm not sure anyone has ever willingly labeled themselves a racist. Hitler and the KKK legitimately thought they were doing great things. Now, imagine your average Joe...
     
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  14. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,414) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
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    Seems they’re all in the same boat, everyone self righteous.
     
  15. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,414) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
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    Don’t know, but maybe we should encourage more racial diversity in our police depts vs worrying about how many coaches of color we have in the NFL. Not to down play the NFL, but lives aren’t at stake.
     
  16. SierraNevallagash

    SierraNevallagash Champion (800) Sep 23, 2018 Maine
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    Excellent point. I'll never forget working with a client once, and he was discussing his move out of Houston, TX. I swear to god, this guy said, "Now I'm not a racist, never have been, but I will not raise my family in a town full of *insert N-word*. My kids will grow up in a safe, white neighborhood..." and he just kept going on and on while repeatedly saying, "..and I'm not a racist or anything..". My jaw hit the floor. I couldn't believe this guy.

    That was the first and last day I worked with him.

    How much of a racist dirtbag does one need to be to realise that they're a racist dirtbag? It's a scary thought to realise that so many aggressively racist people truly believe that they aren't racist. Seems like this is an issue that we often don't even consider.
     
  17. draheim

    draheim Poo-Bah (2,781) Sep 18, 2010 Washington
    Society

    It’s not police brutality. It’s murder.
     
  18. algebeeric_topology

    algebeeric_topology Devotee (484) Dec 30, 2014 New York
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    I feel like we can do both of those things encouraging more diversity, training, accountability while redefining their focus among our police officers AND tell the NFL it should do a better job with representation among it's leadership. I would agree with you though if you if you pointed out one receives considerably more airtime than the other.
     
  19. draheim

    draheim Poo-Bah (2,781) Sep 18, 2010 Washington
    Society

    Beware anyone who starts a sentence with “I’m not a racist, but...”
     
  20. joelwlcx

    joelwlcx Aspirant (224) Apr 23, 2007 Minnesota

    I looked through this entire thread, and saw no one respond to this post.

    Not even the Bro’s...

    FYI: “Reasonable Person” is legal nomenclature, meaning roughly: a person of sound mind and judgment, acting without bias or discrimination

    ...more or less. (Not saying this to you, officerbill, but everyone else)
     
    #300 joelwlcx, Jun 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
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  21. algebeeric_topology

    algebeeric_topology Devotee (484) Dec 30, 2014 New York
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    I can't speak to what @Todd and others have in mind. I can only speak to what I would hope for, and that is for there to be a more culturally competent mod team willing to step in more frequently when these issues arise. That is, a mod team that recognizes when a conversation is being overtly racist (easy) or has racist undertones (hard), a mod team that's willing to ask, "are there racial issues at play in this conversation," and a mod team that's willing to talk about those issues. If @officerbill 's point is that these conversations are tricky and sometimes a little messy, I would agree that it's a valid one, but one that we can deal with. I think the mods can recognize when people are conversing with understanding and thoughtfulness as opposed to people are being belligerent and offensive.

    I disagree with some of the people I've quoted and replied to in this thread, and they may still disagree with me, but I think their responses have typically been thoughtful and courteous. I appreciate that. I think it speaks to how we can move forward as a more inclusive community while furthering the conversation and standing up for social justice.
     
    #301 algebeeric_topology, Jun 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  22. thesherrybomber

    thesherrybomber Disciple (397) Jun 13, 2017 California
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    Some people (I'd even argue most) never realize it, which is why the problem gets passed down generation after generation. Sounds like his subconscious might have been playing tricks on him, ie on some level he knows what he's saying is unacceptable, but for some reason or another, can't stop himself.

    I would ask: safe for who? There are stories of black people being firebombed out of neighborhoods, reported for "trespassing", even when they lived there. Does he think crime doesn't exist in white neighborhoods?
     
  23. tzieser

    tzieser Meyvn (1,156) Nov 21, 2006 New Jersey
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    Can you please elaborate on this aspect? Are there any specific changes in policies or the way the site is operated to make this a more inclusive and welcoming place for people of color? I only ask because, as one of said people, I personally have always felt quite welcome (probably the most welcome of anywhere else on the internet, tbh) and I am wondering which aspects of the site that can, and right fully should, be corrected or improved. It seems like you guys have done a stellar job these past ~14 years that I've been a member, so it makes me curious as to what we can do a better job of here (not only as a community but the site as a whole)

    Regardless, I am happy that you guys are bringing a bigger spotlight of social justice to the site and I also hope that this site will maintain the same level of courteousness, open-mindedness and professionalism that I've experienced these past 14 years (or so). I enjoyed the way things were up until this point and I hope that it remains the same welcoming place for all people interested in beer that it has always been. The world is divisive enough as it is; beer brings us all together and that's why I love this place. :beers:
     
    #303 tzieser, Jun 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  24. Cfahooligan

    Cfahooligan Initiate (123) Mar 19, 2001 California



    We've said it before. People have mentioned that they do not feel comfortable coming here or didn't know it was a place where certain mindsets and attitudes wouldn't be tolerated. Sometimes bigger and more dominant personalities take up a lot of air on something. Things said in the forums that need to be cleaned up and stop being allowed. Perhaps it's not major but it sometimes is equal to microaggressions or thinly veiled things. If it's not you doing it, don't worry about it. If you see something questionable, let us know. Having more inclusive moderators to look for things we might not always catch or understand right away. Lessons learned for all of us.
     
  25. tzieser

    tzieser Meyvn (1,156) Nov 21, 2006 New Jersey
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    Well to my defense it's been a long thread with different perspectives, viewpoints and opinions so my apologies that you had "said it before" because it must've been lost on me in the cacophony of voices of the thread (my ADD at its finest!). Anyway, I do appreciate you answering my question clearly and directly. It is assuring that the site is in good hands.
     
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  26. Dr_Marcelo_Braganceiro

    Dr_Marcelo_Braganceiro Initiate (25) Sep 10, 2019 Spain

    Well Done! Thanks for this, Todd!
     
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  27. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,454) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
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    Without getting too far off topic, this is the problem with police culture that is perpetuating the murder of black men. We clearly have a situation where an officer has had several complaints filed against him, yet he was never removed from service. So now we have one bad cop who is being kept on staff by other officers. By not doing anything and becoming complacent those good cops are now equally guilty for the murder of a man. In that situation there were no good cops. In this specific situation there other coos could have said stop, but instead they acted as shields so onlookers could not film. Right now the whole thing has the feel of an authoritarian power grab. The police are killing black men for non violent offenses. Police are using non lethal ordinance on peaceful protesters and the media who are not breaking any laws. Its 1942 guys.
     
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  28. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Aspirant (205) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
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    Implying that the only bad cops are the ones physically murdering others or calling them “public safety officers” as a rhetorical device is exactly the kind of fantastical bullshit that allows these abuses to pervade, much more so than the outright racism we see and is much easier to identify, because it is so prevalent.

    I’ve met a lot of cops before, and I have yet to know a “good cop.” But hey, maybe that magical individual who signed up to be an officer to enact social justice from the inside, who didn’t protect their fellow officers from punishment for wrongdoing, and who weren’t canned in 6 months exist... ? There’s a first time for everything, I guess.
     
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  29. Chipotle

    Chipotle Aspirant (204) Apr 23, 2017 New York

    The politics of racism can’t be avoided. Politicians need to legislate changes. We have to vote in those politicians. It’s encouraging to see the protests are very multiracial. Though I have to say I was also encouraged 45-50 years ago when I marched for civil rights. Look where we are still.
     
  30. RauchbierFan33

    RauchbierFan33 Initiate (89) May 27, 2019 New York
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    I think people are being a little too black and white re: police / no good cop.

    And just for initial context - all four cops involved with George Floyd’s murder are bad cops, so I’m not referring to cops like the other three who were actively complicit in letting something horrific happen. Forget complicit. Just active. But take @tzieser ’s cousin for example. Sounds like she joined for the right reasons and with good intentions. And if we want to say that she and others like her are not good cops because they have allowed the status quo to exist - then that’s fine. But then you need to look outside of the police, and look at society as a whole and level the same charge.

    I’m a straight white guy living in NYC who works in finance. My type is sort of the poster child for “liberal elite”. And sure - prior to recent events I’ve said the right things (and meant them too). And gotten indignant about the right things. But like so what? Talk is cheap. Have I actually done anything on any sort of focused/ongoing basis to help fix things? No.

    How many of you have lived a perfect life and made no mistakes, and done the right thing in every situation? The answer is zero. Speaking for myself there have been times for where I’ve done the right thing and I’m proud of that. There have been plenty of times where I haven’t though, and where I’ve been complicit in some sort of injustice. And I’m sure there are tons of times where - thanks to my position of privilege - I wasn’t even conscious that there was any sort of injustice playing out to begin with. So guilty there too.

    Cops - like anyone - exist on a spectrum. There are some legitimately fucking evil cops, some bad cops, some indifferent cops. All of them deserve full accountability. Full justice needs to be meted out. But I’m sure there are some idealistic ones too, and ones who try and make a positive difference within their community. So if they’re not good because they haven’t used every opportunity to speak out against their organization then that’s fine. I get that argument. But then it applies to all of us. I refuse to believe that I’m a better person than any cop period, just because I’m not police.
     
  31. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Aspirant (205) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
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    I don't think tzieser told us anything about his cousin's intentions or stance on these issues, unless I missed it? And either way, to be perfectly honest I'm not sure I'd put a lot of stock into that account.

    "And if we want to say that she and others like her are not good cops because they have allowed the status quo to exist - then that’s fine. But then you need to look outside of the police, and look at society as a whole and level the same charge."

    ... Sure. This is a fine summary. This is the feeling behind my sentiment that I've never met or known a good cop (I've lived in a diverse variety of places).

    "I refuse to believe that I’m a better person than any cop period, just because I’m not police."

    You, assumably, don't promote injustice by furthering the goals of authoritarian institutions given your choice of career though, right? All else being equal, I'd say that's a good start. Obviously people are multifaceted, but we're making huge generalizations here (that are completely fair to do until we have more detail to assess). Of course you could be a white supremacist oil tycoon, a guy who takes up two spaces at the grocery store, or something equally heinous... but I don't think I'm being too black and white by saying that being a cop is not a good start, and that I haven't personally met any with these lovely hypothetical intentions people of certain political persuasions love to fantasize about.
     
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  32. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,414) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
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    Its a training and a selection issue. Not everyone has the right attitude and the mentality to be a cop, and imo they’re generally poorly trained and the training cycle imo surely isn’t adequate. And they should never patrol alone, they need to work is teams, for support, for help, for whatever, single patrolling alone has to stop. It’s false economy imo to do this, it doesn’t pay off in the long run. And that criminal in MN should have been long gone like after the 3d strike, plus he had multiple shootings that were cleared, most officers go 20 years and rarely have to pull it let alone pull the trigger. He was unsuitable to be a cop, the system failed there.
     
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  33. RauchbierFan33

    RauchbierFan33 Initiate (89) May 27, 2019 New York
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    with all respect - and that is not a passive aggressive internet statement, because everything you post (even prior to recent events) relating to social/racial/political topics I am literally always in agreement with - then ironically this is your white privilege at play. How can you presume to know what it’s like being a dark skinned Latina woman in the police force, and to paint people like that with the same brush that we paint those fucking turds in Minneapolis:


    And @tzieser im sorry to reference you or your cousin here. But since you mentioned her in this thread she was front and center regarding what I was thinking about
     
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  34. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,414) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    If you’ve never met a “good cop” either you’re not trying or your minds made up just looking at the uniform. Turds like the ones in Mn are the vast minority, and reading his jacket he had no business wearing a badge, how many complaints does one need to be removed from the job? A failure of leadership right there.
     
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  35. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Aspirant (205) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
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    I'm certainly not presuming to know what it's like being a dark skinned Latina woman in the police force, and I'm sorry if that's how it came off.

    I'm making a generalization about one aspect of her life while recognizing that there could be any number of other factors at play, and speaking only to that singular generalization. (And either way, while I don't think anyone meant disrespect towards this particular individual, I think we'd both rather not continue to speak about another user's family member... totally get why she was referenced, but I wouldn't want tensions to flare and I'm sure you probably agree that if the convo goes forward it's probably better handled in the abstract. Apologies if anything came off as offensive, tzieser).
     
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  36. turfy

    turfy Aspirant (251) Mar 17, 2010 Texas
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    Paint with a broad brush much??
     
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  37. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Aspirant (205) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
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    Not sure what you mean. Do you actively seek out nuclear physicists? I don't. Why should I be looking for good cops, or something?

    Again: pursuing a career in law enforcement without a specific aim to upend the current unjustness that stem from law enforcement is enough for me to draw a negative generalization about a group of people (while recognizing that there could be other complicating factors at play that differ by individual!). Because otherwise, you're contributing to the ills that law enforcement perpetuate, which is... you know... not good.

    And @nc41 are we all squared away regarding "white privilege?" I saw many users patiently and thoroughly responding to some of your confusion, so I'm hoping there was some learning.
     
  38. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Aspirant (205) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
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    In terms of those who pursue a career in law enforcement? Yes, definitely. I'm glad I made myself clear.
     
  39. William_Navidson

    William_Navidson Aspirant (205) May 1, 2015 Pennsylvania
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    "Wow, how dare you generalize [people who make an active choice to do something that speaks very strongly to their worldview without much room for exceptional cases]!!! Next you're going to try to tell me that you think it's okay to make generalizations about all [oil lobbyists, cartel members, public defenders in poor areas, paparazzi, nuns]!!"
     
  40. Morrow702

    Morrow702 Initiate (59) Jun 27, 2015 Tennessee

    Well said, sir. As a lurker and rare poster, but frequent reader of the great info people share here, I am glad to see a stand taken against the people who use their anonymity to spew hate.

    Cheers and love to all of ya!
     
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