Bock: Ale or Lager?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by corbmoster, Jun 17, 2015.

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  1. corbmoster

    corbmoster Pundit (848) Dec 15, 2014 Texas
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    I've seen them called both ale and lagers (I've seen more reference to lager than ale though).. I've seen different articles say that traditionally they were ales, and I've seen other articles say traditionally they were lagers. I know maibock is supposed to be a lager. And since it was originally brewed in the winter time in North Germany, it makes sense to be lager. I'm just a little confused about this.
     
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  2. OneDropSoup

    OneDropSoup Pooh-Bah (2,213) Dec 9, 2008 Pennsylvania
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    It's a bottom-fermenting beer, so by our contemporary vernacular it's a lager. There are a few confounding examples - Dead Guy Ale is described by Rogue as a Maibock, though it's fermented with their house ale yeast.
     
  3. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Unless it's... http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/style/92/

    In Germany, land of the beer's origin, Bock is more a designation of strength than brewing process.
     
  4. OneDropSoup

    OneDropSoup Pooh-Bah (2,213) Dec 9, 2008 Pennsylvania
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    And the term "lager" is more a designation of storage & conditioning than yeast strain used, so my guess is that Germans might still refer to Weizenbock as a lager.
     
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  5. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
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    They refer to it as a Weizen or Weißbier, even if it is cold conditioned.
     
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  6. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
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    The history of the term bock appears to be rather mysterious, but generally the lineage of this beer is understood to be connected to the beer which was imported from Einbeck by the duke of Bavaria in the late 1500s, with the establishing of the Hofbräuhaus being an attempt at substituting costly imports by producing beer locally. Beer made in Einbeck was renowned not just in Bavaria but also in Sweden in the 1500s, and the Swedish king Gustav Vasa imported beer from this area during his reign (1520s-1560). This gives us an indication that this was a beer of considerable strenght as far as original gravity went (but not necessarily abv-wise), as this was the foremost measure of quality in beer at the time (one of the highest regarded beers at the time, Danziger Jopenbier was said to be thick as syrup), the more malt per barrel of beer, or the less beer per barrel of malt which was used, the higher quality the beer was considered to be. By the 1800s the Bockbier made by the Hofbräuhaus is an established "brand name", and it's considered as a doppelbier, a beer that is brewed stronger than normal as far as original gravity goes. The main alternative to the Bock made by Hofbräuhaus is the Salvator made by Zacherl's brewery in Au. Salvator at the time is not known as a type of Bock, it's merely a type of "doppelbier" or higher gravity brew. The bock is merely the Hofbräuhaus beer. By the 1800s the Hofbräuhaus bock belongs to the Bavarian braunbier, or brown beer, which is the term used for bottom fermented beer using kiln dried malt. Salvator and the Hofbräuhaus bock are in a class of their own due to their strenght, other breweries are restricted from brewing a beer of a similar strenght due to the regulations, regulative, that exist and which demanded a set relationship between the amount of malt used and the volume of beer produced. Hofbräuhaus was exempted due to having been in the hands of the royal family, and Zacherl's brewery had an inherited royal privilegie (which dated back to the time when the brewery was in the hands of monks) to brew an extra strong beer, a right which was maintained at least into the 1800s. In 1848 the restriction which was in place for brewing these extra strong beers, or doppelbiere, was abolished, and over the span of the next few decades there is a growth in the number of breweries which offer these types of beers, many of them mimicking either the Bock or the Salvator in strenght. This process led to various legal battles in the late 1800s about the rights for the name Salvator, for a period of time a large number of Munich breweries all came out with their own Salvator in the springtime (April was the time when Salvator was traditionally served). Salvator was thus understood to be a type of beer which could be mimicked, and it was only later that it was fitted under the heading of bock beer, whereas previously it had been distinguished from this term (the descriptions which exist of bock and salvator from the 1800s point to the Bock being a beer of higher gravity than the regular lager beer, but lower hopped and sweet tasting, whereas the Salvator was higher gravity still than the Bock, yet having a noticable bitter aftertaste and having a darker color).

    When one considers the use of the word bock beer it might be interesting to consider this table from 1866 showing an analysis of the Hofbräuhaus Bockbier, Sommerbier (lager beer), Weissbier, weisses Bockbier (white Bock beer), Spaten Bockbier, Salvatorbier and Löwenbräu winterbier:

    [​IMG]
    Here's the accompanying article where it is also made clear that the Hofbräuhaus weisses Bockbier is a top fermented weizen (wheat) beer.

    By the early to mid 1800s it's clear that the Hofbräuhaus bock is a bottom fermented brown beer (braunbier), but the Einbecker beer was most likely top fermented similar to the rest of northern German (and northern European) brewing. By 1866 the term bock could obviously be used to describe a higher gravity top fermented wheat beer, at a time when many of the restrictions and laws which had dictated Bavarian brewing where in the process of becoming abolished. Doppelbiere were now possible to brew at any brewery, and the well-known names of Bock and Salvator were being used by various breweries to sell their product through banking on the name and renown of these two beers.
     
    #6 Crusader, Jun 17, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2015
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  7. ravenwork

    ravenwork Initiate (0) Mar 16, 2015 Pennsylvania

    Great question, and great post by Crusader, loved it.

    It's important to remember that actually knowing it is yeast that is most efficient in converting wort into beer had to wait for Louis Pasteur in the late 19th century, a mere moment in the long history of beer. Furthermore, consistent identification and isolation of yeast strains is even more recent, not really definitively possible until the invention of the modern PCR reaction, by my fellow Tech alum Kerry Mullis, in the late 20th century.

    Defining what is an ale or a lager seems almost trivial now, but it wasn't only a few short years ago.
     
  8. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
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    Kudos for both the history lesson and for looking to provide an answer to the OPs question.
     
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  9. corbmoster

    corbmoster Pundit (848) Dec 15, 2014 Texas
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    Thanks for that @Crusader I had read somewhere that bock was originally made sometime in the 1500's and due to a series of unfortunate events, the original bock recipe(s) were pretty much lost to time. During the 1800's there was something of a resurgence of people trying to emulate it. I do wish I had book marked it. Your info is interesting. Bock should just be taken as a general term for a high OG, sweet, malty beer. Might be lager, might be ale. Might be wheat, maybe not so much wheat.
     
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  10. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    The majority of Bocks you'll see on shelves will be bottom-fermented and brewed as a rendition of the German beers. I really don't know many top-fermented Bocks other than Weizenbocks and Dead Guy. Sad thing about Dead Guy is that it calls itself a Maibock, but doesn't really taste like the majority of Maibocks brewed.
     
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  11. Scott17Taylor

    Scott17Taylor Initiate (0) Oct 28, 2013 Iowa
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    They are almost always brewed to be lagers. A few are brewed with ale yeast so they could be ales, but it is a lager style.
     
  12. jeebeel

    jeebeel Zealot (667) Jun 17, 2003 Texas

    OP, part of your confusion may be due to a stupid former TABC labeling law that required any beer with over 4% alcohol (by weight) to be labelled as "ale." This why, for example, the bottles of Paulaner Salvator (a doppelbock lager) you buy here have "ale" on the label. I agree with other posters that real bocks are and should be lagers.
     
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  13. chcfan

    chcfan Initiate (0) Oct 29, 2008 California

    I'm going to send this to my dad, but I feel he will still cling on to the "they clean out the tanks in the spring and the bock is from the bottom" nonsense. Does anyone know where this legend came from?
     
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  14. BMBCLT

    BMBCLT Grand Pooh-Bah (3,427) May 9, 2014 South Carolina
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  15. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
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    It's an interesting story I think. In Bavaria the Bock and Salvator were typically brewed in January or in December, with Salvator being served in April and Bock being served in May (hence the term maibock), with May 1st being the first day when summer beer (higher gravity, more hops, longer storage times) could be served (with the brewing season restricted to late september-march). This was a big deal in Bavaria, since may first was the start of the summer beer season, or lager beer season, or märzenbier season. But in America it seems as if Bock beer became associated with the remains still left in the barrels, rather than a separate higher gravity brew. And I'm wondering whether the partial British brewing heritage of America is to blame for this, see for example this blog entry from Ron Pattison concerning "ullage". I have yet to find a single reference to a similar practise by a Bavarian or Bavarian inspired brewery/brewer, of using left over beer to fill casks. I'm thinking that the storage times, and serving of the new beer in spring, combined with British practises, mutated into the myth of Bock beer constituting a sludge of some sort in America.
     
  16. TongoRad

    TongoRad Grand Pooh-Bah (3,884) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Right- not just bock, but festbier is also related to gravity more than process. Plus, dunkel and helles can also broadly mean 'dark' and 'pale'.

    But it also seems to be true that in certain parts of Germany, those terms can mean a very specific kind of beer, and that's where the confusion comes in. We here in the states generally associate those styles with Bavaria/Munich, and expect them to comport to those narrow definitions.
     
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  17. tasterschoice62

    tasterschoice62 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,949) May 14, 2014 Rhode Island
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    Thanks for the info. Very informative post.
     
  18. corbmoster

    corbmoster Pundit (848) Dec 15, 2014 Texas
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    Go Dynamo!

    *clears throat

    That may have something to do with it. But even the original document linked above from the 1800's describes some bocks that were most likely bottom, and others that were most likely top fermented. The town where bocks started, Einbeck, was known for top fermenting beers if I'm not mistaken. But as others have said, I think nearly all bocks would be lagers. If nothing else, the logistics of it make sense. Brewed in the winter, north Germany, really cold, opened in late winter / early spring, long storing time in cold conditions.... sounds like a lager to me right?
     
  19. kholdstare93

    kholdstare93 Initiate (0) Aug 6, 2014 Canada (BC)

    They used to be ales when they were first made centuries ago.

    However, nowadays, all bocks being made with the exception of weizenbocks are lagers.
     
  20. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    Wheat is not allowed in bottom fermented beers.
    Bock is strength, so you can have a Bock Bier (lbottom fermented), and a weizenbock (Top fermented). One does not have wheat, one does.
     
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