Bohemian Dunkel recipe...doesn't add up

That Carafa II number is suspect.

 

Yeah seems like a zero is missing from that Carafa II

 

Time to throw Dornbusch under the bus again?

Do you plan on a 120 min boil?

 

I just plugged it into the spreadsheet I use and I'm getting high 40s.

 

A few comments:

The beer style that is served at U Fleků is a Tmavý Ležák.

I homebrewed a beer where I used the recipe that Horst Dornbusch as a basis and my Tmavý Ležák turned out pretty dark.

Perhaps @premierpro can provide some input here. He drank my homebrewed Tmavý Ležák at the 2014 NHC but just as importantly had the U Fleků Tmavý Ležák this summer during a vacation to the Czech Republic.

Cheers!

 

I'm only getting 20 SRM, in Brewcipher, when using 31 gallons as the amount. This is not factoring the decoction.

 

Tmavý Ležák is a specific gravity range: 11-12º Plato. Cerne Pivo is a dark beer of any strength.

 

He hasn't even got the OG right - it's a 13º Plato beer.

 

Jacks beer was very tasty but not a clone of U Fleku. I sampled 5 different Czech dark lagers and the U Flecu was the only one where I could taste a slight roast character. I wrote a few comments while drinking a few of these. I believe that this beer is most all Moravian Pils with enough dark malt for color. I tasted no caramel malt in this beer.And I believe that there are no late addition hops. I am drinking my own interpretation of one now. I used 1.5 pounds of carafa 2 in 10 gallons. It is too roasty like a Schwartz bier. Next time I will knock down the carafa 2 by .5 lb. Good luck with your trials!

 

"...not a clone of U Fleku." That is 100% correct. I used the Horst Dornbusch recipe as a 'springboard' but I did indeed freelance here.

Cheers!

 

I don't have an exact number to provide here; I do not brew using brewing software.

 

I have a bottle in the refrigerator. When I pour it into a glass I will compare it against an SRM chart and post the eyeball results.

 

Maybe @EvanRail has some insights on how best to clone a U Fleků beer?

Cheers!

 

To the OP. I ran the numbers through my home-built brewing log sheet. I calculate an SRM of 24.9 for the original recipe (assuming Carafa II is 450 L). This agrees well with the results from the calculators that you have used.

FWIW, your picture of Old Mecklenburg's Dunkel looks much lighter than a 25 SRM beer to me. I made a dark Cz lager similar your recipe above (same ingredients, different proportions) and it calculated to be 16.9 SRM. It was much darker than the OMD you have pictured.

Cheers!

 

Maybe they use some sinamar? All of horst's recipes read like Weyermann ads so that wouldn't surprise me. I had a look through his recipe book that he worked on with Wyermann and Haas (I think?) and it makes me think he hasn't actually brewed a beer in years. Lots of weird stuff that doesn't seem to add up. Not someone I would trust for specifics, but he does get some decent info from brewers in his New Brewer articles.

 

In the Sept./Oct. 2005 Zymurgy there is an article written by Charlie Papazian entitled: A Visit to Prague and U Flecku. This article is available electronically to AHA members.

In the article Charlie details meeting with the brewmaster of U Fleků at that time: Ivan Chramosil. Based upon his tour of U Fleků and his discussions with Ivan Chramosil, Charlie formulated a recipe for a beer he called Ivan the Wonderful’s Czech Dark Lager. The stats of that recipe are:

· Target OG: 1.048

· Approx. FG: 1.012

· IBUs: 22

· Color: 22 SRM (44 EBC)

· Alcohol: 4.5% ABV

What strikes me by the above is 22 SRM (44 EBC).

A light bulb went off and I am thinking that maybe there was a mistake in what was published in the Horst Dornbusch article. Maybe what was intended was a color of 44 EBC. In other words maybe it should have listed what was listed in Charlie’s recipe above of 22 SRM (44 EBC)?

The Charlie Papazian article was republished and you can read it here: http://www.examiner.com/article/a-brewery-worth-visiting-before-you-die-u-fleku-prague

The above article is in parts.

The recipe is here: http://www.examiner.com/article/i-brew-my-own-version-of-u-fleku-dark-lager

Cheers!

 

My eyeball estimate of my homebrewed Tmavý Ležák is 40 SRM.

To provide some context here my grain bill was:

· Pilsner: 48%

· Vienna: 17%

· Light Munich (8.3 L): 17%

· Dark Munich (15.5 L): 8%

· Caramunich II: 5%

· Dehusked Carafa II: 5%

I used this chart here for color reference: http://f-o-a-m.org/color_chart.php

Here is a photograph of the beer:

 

As an ‘exercise’ I used the online recipe tool on the Brewer’s Friend website and that tool predicted the SRM as 21.64 which is basically the same value as detailed in the Charlie Papazian recipe.

As I detailed above my eyeball assessment was on the order of 40 SRM.

I suppose at this point my ‘response’ is hmmmmm?

Cheers!

 

This beer is triple or quadrupel decocted, and then boiled for 2 hours. Therefore I think it makes sense that it will turn out quite a bit darker than software is able to predict. Software ain't perfect. Brew it with a quadrupel decoction and find out for yourself!

Or (this is probably the more viable option!) add a few ounces of debittered black malt to adjust color for a single infusion. No biggie.

 

I also think that calculators are invariably inaccurate to some degree and especially on darker beers. Without measurement, you'll never know what SRM you are going to get, only the general color. There are just so many variables involved. As far as decoction and boiling, I don't think those will actually have an effect on a beer that already has that much dark malt. The melanoidins produced are going to be insignificant compared to what you already have from the malt. Roasted malt is many times more dense in color than lighter malt and it takes a lot of lighter melanoidins to get anywhere close to what you get form dark malt. No way any brewhouse process is going to have a noticeable impact.

 

I'd say you're pretty close. I calculate 41

 

I have a journal that I wrote short tasting notes for every beer I tried on vacation. U-Flekii-"Dark black in color. Smooth with a tinge of roast. Large white head. Well balanced more malt forward very Dunkel like. The head is 1/3 of the glass."

I still believe that this beer is just Pils malt with enough color malt to get it black.

My favorite dark lager while in the Czech Republic was Berounski Rodinny Dark Lager. This one did have some Crystal malt in it and Jacks recipe is a good clone of this one. (As my limited memory remembers!)

 

I am thinking that Sam (@bulletrain76) is onto something with: “I also think that calculators are invariably inaccurate to some degree and especially on darker beers.”

The online recipe calculator on the Brewer’s Friend website produced a color estimate of 21.64 SRM which is significantly off from what I realized with my Tmavý Ležák.

Dave (@bergbrew) must have a more accurate tool since he posted: “I calculate 41.”

I will probably regret this but I am willing to make a prediction that if somebody were to brew a beer per the Horst Dornbusch recipe that it would be close to the target value of 43.4 SRM. The basis of this prediction is that I brewed my Tmavý Ležák using Carafa II at 5% of the grain bill and the Horst Dornbusch recipe also has 5% Carafa II.

Another related aspect worth discussing is that the Horst Dornbusch recipe does not specifically list “dehusked” for the Carafa II. I personally chose to utilize dehusked Carafa II in my Tmavý Ležák; my beer has no roastiness in the favor profile.

Cheers!