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  1. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    As much as I plug in the numbers provided in the recipe quoted here for U Fleku's Cerne Pivo, the SRM just doesn't add up. http://old.brewersassociation.org/p...as/show?title=style-spotlight-bohemian-dunkel

    Specifications
    OG just from the mash: 1.048 (12 °P)
    FG: approx. 1.012 (3 °P)
    SRM: 43.4 SRM (114 EBC)
    IBU: 28
    ABV: 4.8% (3.8% ABW)

    Ingredients
    For easy scaling, all quantities are calculated for 1 U.S. barrel (1.173 HL) net kettle volume produced by a brew system with a nominal extract efficiency rating of 75 percent. If your system is different, adjust all qualities up or down accordingly.

    Mash
    21.68 lbs. (9.83 kg) Weyermann® Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner Malt @ 1.8 °L (50%)
    13.01 lbs. (5.96 kg) Weyermann® Munich I @ 6 °L (30%)
    6.5 lbs. (2.95 kg) Weyermann® CaraMunich® II @ 45.5 °L (15%)
    2.17 lbs. (0.98 kg) Weyermann® Carafa® II @ 45.5 °L (5%)
    Total grain bill: 43.36 lbs (19.67 kg)

    Every calculator I use comes out at around 25-26 SRM. The U Fleku I drank in Prague is a far darker beer -- around the 43 number quoted above. Now, I realize that the decoctions will darken things up a bit, but nowhere close to enough to make up the difference. For reference I am providing a pic of a 25 SRM beer, Olde Mecklenburg's Dunkel

    [​IMG]

    and U Fleku

    [​IMG]

    My fear is that the author of the article cited, Horst Dornbusch, has once again gotten things, well...wrong.

    Any help on getting to the latter type of SRM without jacking up the roasty malts to the high heavens would be helpful and much appreciated. Quite honestly, though, I am tempted to not even follow this recipe at all given how far off the SRM is. I just can't believe that the rest is somehow correct. Cheers!
     
    #1 herrburgess, Dec 2, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
  2. bergbrew

    bergbrew Initiate (70) Jan 12, 2004 Minnesota
    Trader

    That Carafa II number is suspect.
     
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  3. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Zealot (556) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Yeah seems like a zero is missing from that Carafa II
     
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  4. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

  5. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,465) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    Time to throw Dornbusch under the bus again?

    Do you plan on a 120 min boil?
     
  6. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    I just want a true U Fleku recipe. The fact that the recipe he posted seems to be way off is IMO a pretty egregious error.
     
  7. bergbrew

    bergbrew Initiate (70) Jan 12, 2004 Minnesota
    Trader

    I just plugged it into the spreadsheet I use and I'm getting high 40s.
     
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  8. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    Mind sharing the spreadsheet? If not, totally understand. I've had very good results with both the brewersfriend and tastybrew ones, so I tend to trust them. Would be more than happy if they are off in this instance, as a good recipe is more valuable than either of those calculators in this instance.
     
  9. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,154) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    A few comments:

    The beer style that is served at U Fleků is a Tmavý Ležák.

    I homebrewed a beer where I used the recipe that Horst Dornbusch as a basis and my Tmavý Ležák turned out pretty dark.

    Perhaps @premierpro can provide some input here. He drank my homebrewed Tmavý Ležák at the 2014 NHC but just as importantly had the U Fleků Tmavý Ležák this summer during a vacation to the Czech Republic.

    Cheers!
     
  10. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Zealot (556) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I'm only getting 20 SRM, in Brewcipher, when using 31 gallons as the amount. This is not factoring the decoction.
     
    #10 JohnSnowNW, Dec 2, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
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  11. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    Can you explain the difference between Cerne Pivo and Tmavý Ležák a bit further? My understanding was the the former is a generic term and the latter a more specific one, but with basically the same translation/connotation (black/dark beer vs. dark lager). Still, happy to be educated here, as I always just referred to it as U Fleku at the tavern (and "ein Dunkles" elsewhere...after asking if they speak German, of course). Maybe @ChrisLohring can help?

    EDIT: Also, what SRM did you end up with in your version?
     
    #11 herrburgess, Dec 2, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
  12. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    Just saw this. Plan for 100 min.
     
  13. patto1ro

    patto1ro Zealot (535) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands

    Tmavý Ležák is a specific gravity range: 11-12º Plato. Cerne Pivo is a dark beer of any strength.
     
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  14. patto1ro

    patto1ro Zealot (535) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands

    He hasn't even got the OG right - it's a 13º Plato beer.
     
  15. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (250) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    Jacks beer was very tasty but not a clone of U Fleku. I sampled 5 different Czech dark lagers and the U Flecu was the only one where I could taste a slight roast character. I wrote a few comments while drinking a few of these. I believe that this beer is most all Moravian Pils with enough dark malt for color. I tasted no caramel malt in this beer.And I believe that there are no late addition hops. I am drinking my own interpretation of one now. I used 1.5 pounds of carafa 2 in 10 gallons. It is too roasty like a Schwartz bier. Next time I will knock down the carafa 2 by .5 lb. Good luck with your trials!
     
  16. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    Thanks for the info. And I agree that there is a slight roastiness to the U Fleku (that is nicely balanced by the soft mouthfeel and spicy Saaz hops). The more I look into it, the more I see that Dornbusch's recipe is not going to produce a beer like U Fleku. Wondering, though, what he witnessed (or thinks he witnessed) during the brewday. Very frustrating stuff.
     
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  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,154) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    "...not a clone of U Fleku." That is 100% correct. I used the Horst Dornbusch recipe as a 'springboard' but I did indeed freelance here.

    Cheers!
     
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  18. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    What was your beer's SRM?
     
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,154) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    I don't have an exact number to provide here; I do not brew using brewing software.
     
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  20. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    Can you provide an estimate?
     
  21. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,154) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    I have a bottle in the refrigerator. When I pour it into a glass I will compare it against an SRM chart and post the eyeball results.
     
  22. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    Cool. Thx.
     
  23. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    I went ahead and mailed Dornbusch about it. Will let y'all know what I hear.
     
  24. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,154) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Maybe @EvanRail has some insights on how best to clone a U Fleků beer?

    Cheers!
     
  25. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Disciple (386) May 2, 2006 Utah

    To the OP. I ran the numbers through my home-built brewing log sheet. I calculate an SRM of 24.9 for the original recipe (assuming Carafa II is 450 L). This agrees well with the results from the calculators that you have used.

    FWIW, your picture of Old Mecklenburg's Dunkel looks much lighter than a 25 SRM beer to me. I made a dark Cz lager similar your recipe above (same ingredients, different proportions) and it calculated to be 16.9 SRM. It was much darker than the OMD you have pictured.

    Cheers!
     
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  26. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    Doesn't have to be a "clone" of course. But U Fleku is a very unique beer, so anything that will capture that unique combination of slight roastiness, soft (almost creamy) mouthfeel, and earthy/peppery/spicy hops -- and, yes, I want the SRM to be in the 38-42 range -- then I'm all ears.
     
  27. bulletrain76

    bulletrain76 Defender (613) Nov 6, 2007 California

    Maybe they use some sinamar? All of horst's recipes read like Weyermann ads so that wouldn't surprise me. I had a look through his recipe book that he worked on with Wyermann and Haas (I think?) and it makes me think he hasn't actually brewed a beer in years. Lots of weird stuff that doesn't seem to add up. Not someone I would trust for specifics, but he does get some decent info from brewers in his New Brewer articles.
     
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  28. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,154) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    In the Sept./Oct. 2005 Zymurgy there is an article written by Charlie Papazian entitled: A Visit to Prague and U Flecku. This article is available electronically to AHA members.

    In the article Charlie details meeting with the brewmaster of U Fleků at that time: Ivan Chramosil. Based upon his tour of U Fleků and his discussions with Ivan Chramosil, Charlie formulated a recipe for a beer he called Ivan the Wonderful’s Czech Dark Lager. The stats of that recipe are:

    · Target OG: 1.048

    · Approx. FG: 1.012

    · IBUs: 22

    · Color: 22 SRM (44 EBC)

    · Alcohol: 4.5% ABV

    What strikes me by the above is 22 SRM (44 EBC).

    A light bulb went off and I am thinking that maybe there was a mistake in what was published in the Horst Dornbusch article. Maybe what was intended was a color of 44 EBC. In other words maybe it should have listed what was listed in Charlie’s recipe above of 22 SRM (44 EBC)?

    The Charlie Papazian article was republished and you can read it here: http://www.examiner.com/article/a-brewery-worth-visiting-before-you-die-u-fleku-prague

    The above article is in parts.

    The recipe is here: http://www.examiner.com/article/i-brew-my-own-version-of-u-fleku-dark-lager

    Cheers!
     
  29. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    Interesting, but I can't see how anyone could possibly estimate U Fleku's SRM anywhere in the 20s. The beer is so dark as to almost be opaque. Only thing I can surmise is that the opposite occurred and they mistook 44 SRM for EBC.
     
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  30. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,154) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    My eyeball estimate of my homebrewed Tmavý Ležák is 40 SRM.

    To provide some context here my grain bill was:

    · Pilsner: 48%

    · Vienna: 17%

    · Light Munich (8.3 L): 17%

    · Dark Munich (15.5 L): 8%

    · Caramunich II: 5%

    · Dehusked Carafa II: 5%

    I used this chart here for color reference: http://f-o-a-m.org/color_chart.php

    Here is a photograph of the beer:
    [​IMG]
     
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  31. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    That grain bill got me closer, at 33 SRM.
     
  32. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,154) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    As an ‘exercise’ I used the online recipe tool on the Brewer’s Friend website and that tool predicted the SRM as 21.64 which is basically the same value as detailed in the Charlie Papazian recipe.

    As I detailed above my eyeball assessment was on the order of 40 SRM.

    I suppose at this point my ‘response’ is hmmmmm?

    Cheers!
     
  33. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (222) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    This beer is triple or quadrupel decocted, and then boiled for 2 hours. Therefore I think it makes sense that it will turn out quite a bit darker than software is able to predict. Software ain't perfect. Brew it with a quadrupel decoction and find out for yourself!

    Or (this is probably the more viable option!) add a few ounces of debittered black malt to adjust color for a single infusion. No biggie.
     
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  34. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    I agree that the triple decoction would make it darker -- and I have brewed a number of double-decocted beers myself -- but there's no way it's going to get it from the 20s to the 40s in SRM. I just don't buy that. What I do think, however, is that maybe Dornbusch possibly missed an addition (maybe at sparge) of some additional dehusked Carafa or something. I have also had very good success getting color -- without getting much of the roastiness at all -- for a Rauchbier by adding milled/crushed Carafa during the fly sparge.
     
    #34 herrburgess, Dec 3, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2014
  35. bulletrain76

    bulletrain76 Defender (613) Nov 6, 2007 California

    I also think that calculators are invariably inaccurate to some degree and especially on darker beers. Without measurement, you'll never know what SRM you are going to get, only the general color. There are just so many variables involved. As far as decoction and boiling, I don't think those will actually have an effect on a beer that already has that much dark malt. The melanoidins produced are going to be insignificant compared to what you already have from the malt. Roasted malt is many times more dense in color than lighter malt and it takes a lot of lighter melanoidins to get anywhere close to what you get form dark malt. No way any brewhouse process is going to have a noticeable impact.
     
  36. bergbrew

    bergbrew Initiate (70) Jan 12, 2004 Minnesota
    Trader

    I'd say you're pretty close. I calculate 41
     
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  37. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    So, while the color of @JackHorzempa's beer looks pretty darned good for the "style," there still seems to be the discrepancy between the Dornbusch-based recipes and the original U Fleku. Dornbusch claims that the brewery uses 15% caramel/crystal malt, while @premierpro says he tasted little in the way of any caramel malt. It's been a while since I drank U Fleku, but I don't recall much in the way of the type of deep toastiness that CaraMunich II imparts (especially at rates as high as 15% of the grain bill). Still no word from Dornbusch himself on this, but I am determined to get some clearer answers. May reach out to U Fleku directly. There's also Pivni Filosof, who may know more.
     
  38. premierpro

    premierpro Aspirant (250) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I have a journal that I wrote short tasting notes for every beer I tried on vacation. U-Flekii-"Dark black in color. Smooth with a tinge of roast. Large white head. Well balanced more malt forward very Dunkel like. The head is 1/3 of the glass."

    I still believe that this beer is just Pils malt with enough color malt to get it black.

    My favorite dark lager while in the Czech Republic was Berounski Rodinny Dark Lager. This one did have some Crystal malt in it and Jacks recipe is a good clone of this one. (As my limited memory remembers!)
     
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  39. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,100) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    Is that the same 13 degree one that the Pivni Filosof writes about here: http://www.pivni-filosof.com/2008/02/berounsk-medvd.html (scroll down about halfway to get to the discussion of the dark lager).
     
  40. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,154) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    I am thinking that Sam (@bulletrain76) is onto something with: “I also think that calculators are invariably inaccurate to some degree and especially on darker beers.”

    The online recipe calculator on the Brewer’s Friend website produced a color estimate of 21.64 SRM which is significantly off from what I realized with my Tmavý Ležák.

    Dave (@bergbrew) must have a more accurate tool since he posted: “I calculate 41.”

    I will probably regret this but I am willing to make a prediction that if somebody were to brew a beer per the Horst Dornbusch recipe that it would be close to the target value of 43.4 SRM. The basis of this prediction is that I brewed my Tmavý Ležák using Carafa II at 5% of the grain bill and the Horst Dornbusch recipe also has 5% Carafa II.

    Another related aspect worth discussing is that the Horst Dornbusch recipe does not specifically list “dehusked” for the Carafa II. I personally chose to utilize dehusked Carafa II in my Tmavý Ležák; my beer has no roastiness in the favor profile.

    Cheers!
     
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