Boston Lager

You have posted on numerous occasions concerning Sam Adams Octoberfest about “how sweet it was”. I can tell you on a personal level that I get that. Sam Adams Octoberfest is also too sweet for my palate. So, an individual could ask: should an Oktoberfest beer be this sweet? Needless to say but lots of folks who are ‘regulars’ on the Germany forum would state that Sam Adams Octoberfest is not brewed ‘to style’. But Sam Adams Octoberfest has won multiple medals at the GABF for the German-style Marzen category. If I was a GABF judge (which I am not) I would not select Sam Adams Octoberfest to be a medal winner but the GABF judges have done so. I think the ‘best’ thing for you (and me) is to just recognize that Sam Adams Octoberfest is not a beer suited to our palates.

Now, Sam Adams Octoboerfest is by no means an "Imperial" Boston Lager. It is neither higher in alcohol or higher in hopping.

As regards “Boston Lager is more balanced”. I get what you are saying there in that Boston Lager is not ‘overly’ sweet. I would suggest that when it comes to an Oktoberfest style beer, which should be a balanced beer, the balance is between malt flavors and hop presence. In the context of an Oktoberfest beer, Boston Lager is not at all balanced since the hop presence (both bittering and flavor/aroma) is too high. It could be argued that Boston Lager meets the qualities of an American Amber Lager but Boston Lager is by no means balanced within the context of the Marzen/Oktoberfest style.

It has been a year or so since I have had a Sam Adams Double Bock but I have always enjoyed drinking that beer. My favorite domestic version of a Doppelbock is Great Divide Wolfgang Doppelbock Lager. To my mind that beer has a perfect balance of malt and hops for the Doppelbock style.

Cheers!

 

Very interesting, but not too shocking. When we were there last month there was a group of guys drinking the pils so we ordered one of those only to discover it was a butter bomb. Not sure what the procedure is in Germany, but if that was in the States I would have sent it back. In the UK I'd think the patrons would bail and wait for a cask on a different day. It didn't seem to phase anyone there, though.
While the Braunbier was different, it was at least still well made. I liked the drier/hoppier one a little more, but this one was still good. If anything, it was closer to a normal dunkel.

If anyone wants to try an "Imperial" Oktoberfest, give the Kaiser from Avery a try. After that, the one from Sam Adams will taste like a Kolsch. There's absolutely nothing authentic about it, but it's a fun beer. While certainly not that close, it reminds me a little of Samichlaus with it's sheer level of sweetness.

I'm with Jack on GD's Wolfgang. It's my favorite American doppelbock, too. It's different than the German ones, but still very enjoyable in it's own right. I'm a huge fan of the malt character in the Great Divide beers, so this one especially works well for me. Other than that beer (and smaller releases from Dry Dock and Prost) the only other decent US one I've had was the Sam Adams version...which is still only "pretty good" compared with the lesser German doppels.

 

It's rumored that Klosterbrau has begun counting heavily on tourists to boost their sales, since they are located right by the river on the main tourist walking route -- plus they have that new Hofgarten on the water. I very much hope they can dial back in their processes, as their Braunbier and Schwaerzla are two of the most unique (non-Rauch) beers in Bamberg. I agree that these two seem to be holding up pretty well so far (the latter better than the former IMO), but the whole thing does worry me.

 

I hope Klosterbrau's Bock is better. We were planning on going to their Bockbieranstich.

 

Ooh...yea. Forgot about the QC issues when I suggested that. Hope it holds up as well, as that is probably my favorite Bock in the world.

 

Even Koch has compared it to Pilsner Urquell, (in a quote that had me scratching my head) from a UK paper when he first introduced Boston Lager there:

Well, BBC was calling Boston Lager a "Vienna Lager" on their "Family of Beer Styles" pages (now apparently gone - those guys change their website as frequently as people change their socks - but those Ale and Lager pages were full of laughable errors - like Noble Pils listed as an "Eisbock" and Hallertauer Imperial Pilsner as a "Wheat Bock" both under the "Pilsner" heading ).




If we are to believe Koch's "Great-great-great grandfather's recipe" story, it is not hard to then believe that, like many US lager brewers of the late 19th century, Louis Koch brewed what was then called a "Wiener Beer" along with other German-American styles. So, then the question becomes what was the typical hopping rate for that style in the US in the 1870's (which predates the Brewers Association's style guidelines, much to Uncle Charlie's chagrin, I'd guess ) .

 

The common term in the US for "Vienna" style lager beers in the pre-Prohibition era. (Used in Europe, too, of course- as well as for non-beer items, thus "Vienna Sausage = Wieners". I'm no foreign language etymologist, but I take it "Wiener" means "of Vienna" and that whole "w" = "v" sound thing.)

Lots of US lager brewers made them - Schlitz, Miller, Blatz, etc.


"...and the aromatic properties of the hops are manifest in every glass..." Hmmm...

"Agree"? On a Beer Advocate forum? What would be the point?

 

Yep, the German word for Vienna is "Wien" (pronounced "VEEN"). So "Wiener" is something that's in the Vienna style, for example "Wiener Schnitzel" is schnitzel in the Vienna style (which I think means veal instead of pork, by the way).

 

Fwiw, most Wiener Schnitzels (or Schnitzel Wiener Art) I've had have been pork, with a few, pricier veal exceptions....

More research to come starting Sunday! Prosit!!

 

That's interesting. I thought the thing that actually made them different (thus the need to explain "in the Vienna Style" as opposed to ordinary Deutsch) is that they were made of veal (Kalb). I have some research to do myself!

 

Found this on Wiki: "To avoid mixing up different products, the Austrian and German food committees have decided that a "Wiener Schnitzel" must be made of veal. A Schnitzel made of pork can be called "Schnitzel Wiener Art" or "Wiener Schnitzel vom Schwein". "

Prosit!!

 

Gordon Biersch bottles their Märzen for Trader Joe's as a Vienna -- which it's closer to anyway, and about the best one I've found is August Schell's Firebrick.

Almost forgot Dynamo by Metropolitan, but it's difficult to get outside Chicago.

(Yes! In before some joker tries to tell us about Great Lakes Eliot Ness! )

 

As I posted previously: “My personal favorite Vienna Lager is brewed by Devil's Backbone Brewery (Virginia).”

Below is a description about this beer on the Devil’s Backbone website. As you can see it is hopped less at 18 IBUs vs. the Boston Lager hopping level of 30 IBUs.

“Devils Backbone Vienna Lager, 2012 Gold World Beer Cup and 2009 Great American Beer Festival Silver Medal winner, is a chestnut colored lager with a malty aroma and subtle toasty sweetness derived from a multi-stage mash. A pinch of noble hops gives this refreshing beer a clean finish. IBUs - 18, ABV - 4.9%

Cheers!

 

Over periods of time, vienna Lager has just meant "amber colored lager" so any relatively traditional take on an amber colored lager can conceivably be a Vienna I guess.

From a brewers perspective, Boston lager is a pretty poor hack at a real Vienna because it has an American pale malt base and gets its color from medium caramel malt with no vienna or munich malt as far as I know. The hop character is right, but thats about the only thing that fits with the style besides the color. So it's a loose American interpretation of a Vienna-style lager that would pretty much make is an American Amber Lager most accurately if you consider that a style.

One thing I think everyone needs to keep in mind about BBC is that they are full of shit when it comes to styles and will call anything anything if the marketing department likes it. I would never take any of their style descriptions seriously as they just don't care about brewing anything accurately to the style that the put on the label.

We actually just brewed a Vienna for our Oktoberfest beer, with lots of German vienna malt as a base. That's the key to this style of beer, without it, you just have an amber lager, IMO. You can't recreate that malt character with American 2-row and caramel malt.

 

If U.S. "craft" brewers would heed just this one bit of knowledge/advice, things would improve around here considerably.

 

I think that at 5.7% the GB Maerzen is definitely in the proper range, if you believe the only difference between the styles is the starting plato.

 

“I think that at 5.7% the GB Maerzen is definitely in the proper range…” Which style are you referring to wrt “proper range”?

According to the Brewers Association style guidelines:

· Vienna style Lager: 4.8 – 5.4% ABV

· German style Marzen: 5.3 – 5.9% ABV

Cheers!