Bottle conditioning in basement

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Behlal, Jul 12, 2017.

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  1. Behlal

    Behlal Initiate (0) Dec 21, 2016 Illinois

    So all of my batches have come out slightly off. I'm not quite sure how to place the off flavor on them though if almost say like a very muted grassy or maybe pear flavor? When I've been letting my beers bottle condition they've been sitting on the concrete foundation of my basement. Could that be dropping the temperature enough that they aren't really conditioning or are exceedingly slowly?
     
  2. machalel

    machalel Initiate (0) Jan 19, 2012 Australia

    Are they carbonated properly? If so, then it's not the low temperature that's problem (at least when it comes to conditioning).

    What sort of beers are you brewing? All the same styles, or a wide variety?

    What's your normal process for brewing/fermenting/etc?



    Pear can sometimes come from under pitching, under oxygenating, or too high fermentation temperatures.

    If it is more "green-apple" than pear, then this could mean incomplete fermentation (bottling too early, too cold, or under pitching).

    Grassy could be too much hops, or maybe older stale hops or malts.
     
  3. Behlal

    Behlal Initiate (0) Dec 21, 2016 Illinois

    They are inconsistently carbonated mostly under with a handful that are over carbonated.

    I'm brewing a variety of kits. Mostly porters/stouts/saisons

    Sanitize everything with star san

    Normal process is two water with campdem tablet since it's been through a softener follow the directions for the kit for boil cool with ic rack to carboy move to temp controlled cooler for fermenting add yeast liquid I've done starts for and dry just sprinkled on. After a week take gravity check on then every 2-3 days after that tale another to confirm no change. After 2 checks at same gravity bottle only next off day by racking to bottling bucket with sugar solution and then to bottles with bottle filler. Test bottles after a week every few days.

    None of those flavor sets are exactly right for the description if it i can't really place the flavor I'm getting though.
     
  4. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Pooh-Bah (2,111) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont
    Pooh-Bah

    Is your sugar solution mixed with water and stirred into the beer nod how much sugar are you adding?
     
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  5. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    @GormBrewhouse is right on with the inconsistent carbonation issue. As for the pear flavor, do all these kits utilize the same yeast, and how much camden are you using to treat your water? And how much water are you treating? I'm not sure I follow using campden tablet because of the water softener.
     
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  6. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (2,236) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    Always put your sugar solution in the bottle bucket before you rack into it.
    Your other problem sounds yeast related. Are you pulling them too early? IS the yeast itself not getting enough love going in? If you have some bread yeast laying around. Give your boil some of that. They are simple minded and aren't above being cannibals or feeding on dead bodies for their nutrients. After you pitch. Don't be afraid to get some aggression out on the fermentation vessel and shake it around to give them oxygen. In the first two days of fermentation. You can be a jerk to them and give them all the air they need to wake up and kick ass.
     
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  7. Behlal

    Behlal Initiate (0) Dec 21, 2016 Illinois

    The beer is racked onto the sugar solution in the bottling bucket. Usually between 5 and 8 ounces depending on style I've been using northern brewers priming sugar calculator.

    I meant to say i use campden the times ive bypassed our softener and used hard instead of soft. The tablets I've got say to use 1 per gallon so I've been following that rate. So approximately 6-6.5 gallons when using hard water.

    Each kits used a different yeast. I don't believe in taking them off the yeast to early like I said I wait till I've gotten at least 2 readings at the same gravity with 2 to 3 days between them and even then it usually sits on the yeast another few days before I get a chance to bottle. And all of them except have ended with .01 or .02 on the fg of what I expected.

    I usually spend a minute or 2 shaking the carboy around with no airlock before pitching to oxygenate.
     
  8. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    So a couple things stand out to me...
    1. Stir your beer gently in your bottling bucket after racking your beer in. I used to think racking on top of the sugar was enough to disperse my sugar, it isn't. I keep a sanitized spatula around to stir the beer as I go.
    2. That's a shit ton of campden. If you're using it to kill bacteria and yeast in fruit you use that much. If you are using it to get rid of chloramines the typical dosing is 1/4 tablet per five gallons. Are you using city water?
    As for yeast health, are you using dry yeast? Typically dry yeast comes with a high enough cell count for a decent pitch.
     
  9. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    Are you saying to add bread yeast to the kettle boil to prevent off flavors? How long?
     
  10. Behlal

    Behlal Initiate (0) Dec 21, 2016 Illinois

    I thought that seemed like a lot of campden but that's what the bottle I got from my lhbs said to use.

    I've use bottled spring, city both softened and not.

    Both dry and liquid and I've done a start for the liquid every time I've used it
     
  11. Supergenious

    Supergenious Maven (1,273) May 9, 2011 Michigan

    Yeah, that is a shit ton of campden. I don't know what the off flavors of too much campden is though.
    Are you doing extract or all grain? If extract, I would just use RO or spring water or distilled and not add anything to treat it. See if that does it.
     
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  12. Behlal

    Behlal Initiate (0) Dec 21, 2016 Illinois

    Extract. I've used untreated spring and same off taste less of it but that was also my most recent batch so the warmest my basement has been for a batchc
     
  13. popsicleian

    popsicleian Initiate (0) Jun 29, 2004 Minnesota

    I bet those instructions are supposed to be for wine, not brewing water.
     
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  14. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Crusader (472) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)
    Trader

    I have been sleuthing out a similar issue for myself - I randomly had two batches in a row come out with strong fruity off flavors. Very much pear like, over ripe red apples, almost metallic, hinting at sweetness without actually tasting properly sweet.

    After a lot of digging I have settled on the off flavor being esters. With the two IPAs that came out this way I was re pitching slurry, which has an unknown / widely varying cell density and I believe that in all likelihood I was over estimating my density and wound up with yeast starters that did not have the cell count I thought they did.

    Runaway esters are often caused by underpitching yeast, and can also be related to under oxygenation of wort, which leads to the same fundamental problem of not enough cells. Even with dry yeast, you might need 2 or 3 packs for bigger beers. With liquid yeast, without a stir plate and flask, its going to be hard to build up a big enough starter for high gravity ales / lagers. Unless you are absolutely sure you are pitching big, healthy amounts of yeast, I would look to this as the first thing to correct.

    As for bottle conditioning - you will probably have better luck if you can get them warmer - in winter mine condition around 60 degrees and take about 3 weeks. In summer they condition around 72 -79 and are usually fully carbed up in a week. Not sure what could be causing the variation of carbonation other than improper mixing of priming sugar.

    The good news is that if you are dealing with esters, they will hydrolyze and turn back into good ole alcohol. This will happen faster at slightly warmer temps, and it will probably take a couple months depending on how high the ester concentrations are.
     
  15. Behlal

    Behlal Initiate (0) Dec 21, 2016 Illinois

    Well what made me think of it fibay is I went to grab some more to throw in the fridge and they were nearly as good as the ones coming out of the fridge. We just reorganized the room with our fridge down there though so I've got somewhere other than the middle of the walkway to put my beer so I'm hoping that will help
     
  16. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,057) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Are you racking by siphoning to the carboy or pouring with the use of a funnel? If you are siphoning and then relying on shaking the carboy for oxygenation that could be an issue. I think we all tend to be gentle with carboys so that you may not be shaking it enough to get adequate O2 into your wort. However, if you use a funnel and pour it in, then ignore my statement. Pouring, especially with a strainer in the funnel, should do an adequate job of oxygenation for most beers so you don't have to risk breaking a carboy during aggressive shaking.
     
  17. Behlal

    Behlal Initiate (0) Dec 21, 2016 Illinois

    Racking by siphoning to the carboy. I'll have to try that on my next brew. Which was going to be today and them half of North IL flooded.
     
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  18. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Excuse me, but what the hell does that mean?
     
  19. machalel

    machalel Initiate (0) Jan 19, 2012 Australia

    For the next batch, try two packs of yeast, 1/4 the amount of campden, pouring rather than syphoning into the carboy, leaving it on the yeast for a week after it has reached FG, and stirring the sugar mix in the bottling bucket.

    Then see if you still have the same problem. :slight_smile:
     
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  20. Behlal

    Behlal Initiate (0) Dec 21, 2016 Illinois

    Tap not two.



    I picked up a keg system on sale a week or two ago so I'll be kegging my next batch instead of bottling. But otherwise I'll be taking those suggestions.
     
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