Dismiss Notice
Love Belgian Beer?

Join us Sep 17 in Portland, Maine for Return of the Belgian Beer Fest, featuring hundreds of authentic Belgian beers and Belgian-inspired offerings!

Tickets + more: beeradvocate.com/belgian

Breweries Closing

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by Can_has_beer, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Can_has_beer

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Posts:
    547
    Likes Received:
    444
    Location:
    Texas
  2. otispdriftwood

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Posts:
    5,297
    Likes Received:
    5,311
    Location:
    Colorado
    Not surprised about the rock bottom location closing. After all, in San Diego with all of the breweries nearby, there's little room for mediocre chain brew pubs. Never heard of the hawaiian islands brewing or alaskas ring of fire meadery and had some Steelhead beer and thought it was so-so. Bottom line - breweries open and close all the time. I believe more are opening than closing on a yearly basis, so until more are closing than opening, there is no bubble bursting.

    If you honestly believe that 4 breweries [out of over 2,500] closing is the start of a bubble burst, you watch too much national news media coverage where almost anything negative is the start of something going downhill.
     
  3. jbdpsu82

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Posts:
    248
    Likes Received:
    1,156
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
  4. IceAce

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2004
    Posts:
    953
    Likes Received:
    6,307
    Location:
    California
    Finished that for 'ya.
     
  5. JohnSnowNW

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2013
    Posts:
    2,901
    Likes Received:
    6,709
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Yes, but it's difficult to tell if it will be a slow leak or blow-out.
     
  6. tjensen3618

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Posts:
    1,985
    Likes Received:
    3,109
    Location:
    California

    You might be thinking of Mad River in Northern CA who have a line of beers under the Steelhead name, they are not closing. That's who I thought it was at first.

    The place that is closing is a small brewpub in Southern CA, I've never been there nor heard of them.
     
  7. OldPenguinHunter

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Posts:
    107
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    California
    I can't believe Steelhead is closing, that place used to be my choice underage drinking place... Maybe the Ant-hill pub did them in...
     
    rather likes this.
  8. Can_has_beer

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Posts:
    547
    Likes Received:
    444
    Location:
    Texas
    It was just a question dude, calm down.
     
    SteelersX and otispdriftwood like this.
  9. duluoz

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2007
    Posts:
    33
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    California
    There is no craft beer "bubble." Some areas and markets may be nearing a saturation point, or craft beer "glut," but there's no such thing as a bubble for the craft beer industry.

    Bubbles result primarily from overvaluation, inaccurate speculation, and foolish investment on a very wide scale. There is no such bubble that is going to one day cause the craft beer industry to implode. It's a boogeyman.

    In areas with more breweries than that particular market can handle, some are going to fail. That's glut. Not the same thing, and nothing to panic about. Just basic economics.
     
  10. Jules11788

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Posts:
    186
    Likes Received:
    147
    Location:
    California
    Yeah, Steelhead was nothing spectacular.
     
  11. rlcoffey

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Posts:
    1,922
    Likes Received:
    990
    Location:
    Kentucky
    There is no bubble.

    Does anyone think craft is going to fall from 6% to 3% in the next two years?

    Yeah, I thought so.

    There is no bubble. There wasnt a bubble in the 90s either. Flat to tiny growth is the exact opposite of what happens in a bubble situation.
     
    nickfl, LordFoul, jkane101 and 4 others like this.
  12. rlcoffey

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Posts:
    1,922
    Likes Received:
    990
    Location:
    Kentucky
    In the last 5 years, 12 to 18 breweries and 25 to 51 brewpubs have closed every year.
     
    nickfl and ChipMurray like this.
  13. otispdriftwood

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Posts:
    5,297
    Likes Received:
    5,311
    Location:
    Colorado
    Thanx for the clarification.
     
  14. otispdriftwood

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Posts:
    5,297
    Likes Received:
    5,311
    Location:
    Colorado

    Don't take it personal - the answer was not specifically for you. At least I didn't capitalize.
     
    ChipMurray likes this.
  15. rlcoffey

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Posts:
    1,922
    Likes Received:
    990
    Location:
    Kentucky
    There was one beer related bubble in the 90s that could appear again in the future: there WAS a bubble in brewing equipment. Manufacturers got stuck with a lot of equipment and couldnt sell new equipment with the glut of slightly used equipment that was available for sale.
     
  16. LAD

    LAD

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2008
    Posts:
    166
    Likes Received:
    190
    Location:
    Texas
    The USA is a very big country with plenty of vacant land for many more breweries. Unfortunately, the beer cooler in your store is not so big.
     
    TastyIsBeer and ChipMurray like this.
  17. leedorham

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Posts:
    2,542
    Likes Received:
    4,335
    Location:
    Washington
    But I learned the word "Bubble" from the TV a few years ago and I like to use it to be a cynical naysayer. What am I supposed to do now?

    /sarcasm

    Bubbles happen because of speculation. That is not what is going on with breweries. Most of these breweries are being opened with large amounts of cash money, not speculative bank loans or VC money, and growing by selling their beer and re-investing more cash money.

    When a lot of businesses open and survive based on real products being sold for real cash money at their real value to the consumer, it is not anywhere close to a bubble.
     
    prdrums77, vacax and maltmaster420 like this.
  18. rlcoffey

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Posts:
    1,922
    Likes Received:
    990
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Even that isnt a sign of a bubble bursting.

    Until craft sales volume starts falling OR prices are dramatically slashed to keep sales up there is no bubble bursting.

    I dont think there is a bubble to burst, because I think craft sales volume is solid. I dont see it declining in the near future, or prices getting slashed.
     
    dennis3951 likes this.
  19. rlcoffey

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Posts:
    1,922
    Likes Received:
    990
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Yeah, its a particular pet peeve of mine. What really annoys me is that Greg Koch keeps using the term wrong.
     
  20. grilledsquid

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Posts:
    1,756
    Likes Received:
    1,743
    Location:
    California
    For you guys who've been around for a while, how well do mediocre breweries in a specific locale tend to do? What if the vast majority of breweries in a locale can be considered mediocre. Will they survive simply because the competition is so weak that there's little motivation to improve?
     
    Dave1999 likes this.
  21. leedorham

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Posts:
    2,542
    Likes Received:
    4,335
    Location:
    Washington
    ;)
     
  22. rlcoffey

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Posts:
    1,922
    Likes Received:
    990
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Depends on the locale. Mediocre brewpubs fail quick because the restaurant business is hard. Mediocre breweries can last a while if there isnt a lot of better local beer. I havent seen a brewery local to me close since the 90s. A few brewpubs have come and gone.
     
  23. rlcoffey

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Posts:
    1,922
    Likes Received:
    990
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Me engineer. Language hard.
     
  24. Jonnyoutlaw

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    Posts:
    13
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I think as far as breweries surviving due to lack of competition is true and I also think it is somewhat the consumers fault, obviously if all the brews in a locale are mediocre there is something wrong with the people running it and the people consuming it. The consumers and the brewmaster should want nothing more than to get the best and most out of their product. That being said I guess all consumers can't be to blame as they may not know any better, I know plenty of people who drink the standard watered down yuck simply because it is cheap and it's what they know and don't want to try anything else.

    As for any kind of bubble I doubt that is happening, hence Cincinnati having 3 new breweries opening up and doing rather well. I think again this has to do with the end product and getting the word out there.
     
    Casterbridge likes this.
  25. SirBottlecap

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Posts:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    Location:
    California
    There's one in Burlingame and one in Oregon, too.
     
  26. Can_has_beer

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Posts:
    547
    Likes Received:
    444
    Location:
    Texas
    So, if I am understanding correctly, is the general consensus here that as more breweries open the weak in the herd will be eliminated?
     
  27. Jonnyoutlaw

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    Posts:
    13
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I think that is a good way of looking at it, the good part of more breweries is hopefully they will push each other and create new brews. Those that can't keep up will more than likely fail, but even when they close the doors that doesn't mean down the road they could be back again.
     
    Norica likes this.
  28. leedorham

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Posts:
    2,542
    Likes Received:
    4,335
    Location:
    Washington
    Well what will happen is that the best breweries will begin vanishing mysteriously and the government will subsidize the rest and ration brewing ingredients.

    Eventually we will find that all the best breweries have relocated to a secret place where all the beers are tasty, rare, and the trade values are all based on merit.

    Within a few years the mainstream brewing industry will collapse and all of the vanished breweries will return to repopulate the earth with rare beer.
     
  29. hopfenunmaltz

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Posts:
    9,049
    Likes Received:
    6,975
    Location:
    Michigan
    Bubbles are fairly rare. Boom and bust cycles are more common.

    In the 90's the growth went from a long period of >30% to a max of 50% annual growth, to a period of 0% to 3% growth over 7 years extending into the early 2000's. That resulted in the closure of many breweries. Some of the established ones with a good product line had large growth in the flat period, take Sierra Nevada as an example.

    In Michigan there is much room for growth as craft beer is below the national average, but the established breweries have installed, or are installing, a huge amount of capacity. It is going to be interesting to see how long things continue.
     
  30. jmw

    jmw

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Posts:
    2,105
    Likes Received:
    2,070
    Location:
    North Carolina
    You have just spelled out the definition of this place.
    http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/12365
     
  31. Hanzo

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2012
    Posts:
    4,785
    Likes Received:
    13,086
    Location:
    Virginia
    Any places that make good beer closing?
     
    Horbar, dauss, mjryan and 5 others like this.
  32. otispdriftwood

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Posts:
    5,297
    Likes Received:
    5,311
    Location:
    Colorado
    In other words, capitalism at work.
     
    Xandrose and Jonnyoutlaw like this.
  33. otispdriftwood

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Posts:
    5,297
    Likes Received:
    5,311
    Location:
    Colorado
  34. otispdriftwood

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Posts:
    5,297
    Likes Received:
    5,311
    Location:
    Colorado
    Got any stats on how many have opened?
     
  35. rlcoffey

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Posts:
    1,922
    Likes Received:
    990
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Michigan Brewing Company. I liked their version of Celis White. I dont know about anything else they made.
     
  36. rlcoffey

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Posts:
    1,922
    Likes Received:
    990
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Yep, I posted it in another thread earlier this week, but I can repeat.

    Range in last 5 years was 59-310 breweries opening and 49-99 brewpubs.

    Edit: details of last 10 years on page 3 of billionaire thread.
     
  37. hopfenunmaltz

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Posts:
    9,049
    Likes Received:
    6,975
    Location:
    Michigan
    A brewery that also made Kid Rock's Bad Ass Beer. They made very good beer around 2000 when Dan Rogers was the brewer. He is now at Griffon Claw in Birmingham MI. He learned to make Celis White from Pierre Celis, so his Wit is excellent. It is a packaging brewery that has a 20,000 bbl a year footprint.
     
  38. kingofhop

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Posts:
    3,021
    Likes Received:
    6,782
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Bubble talk here, bubble talk there. Has me thinkin' of carbonation levels.
     
  39. jesskidden

    Subscriber

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Posts:
    7,780
    Likes Received:
    18,012
    Location:
    New Jersey
  40. jmw

    jmw

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Posts:
    2,105
    Likes Received:
    2,070
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I'm guessing that range per year over the time period specified.
     
  • About Us

    Your go-to website for beer (since 1996), publishers of BeerAdvocate magazine (since 2006) and hosts of world-class beer events (since 2003). Respect Beer.
  • Return of the Belgian Beer Fest

    BeerAdvocate Brings its All-Belgian Fest to Portland, Maine on September 17, 2016. Tickets are on sale now.

    Learn More
  • Get the Mag

    Become a BeerAdvocate magazine print subscriber today.

    Subscribe