Breweries that allow dogs

Discussion in 'Pacific' started by Curb71, Jan 11, 2015.

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  1. HeavySpeedway

    HeavySpeedway Initiate (0) Jul 8, 2013 California

    I think you are overthinking this. Any restaurant, coffee shop, book store, etc. can have this happen to them. The most blatant violations of it I've seen are at the Zoo and Zoo Safari Park, though. I'm pretty sure that California's law puts the onus on the owner, though - it's not like serving people under 21. A business cannot get penalized because they were lied to about it being a service dog.
    Curb71 likes this.
  2. Pecan

    Pecan Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2012 Arizona

    According to the law, you can be asked if it is a service dog required due to disability and what work or task the dog is trained for. I don't really see this as a terrible position though... If a dog is in a non-dog area, you ask if it is a service animal. If they say yes, continue business as normal.

    This doesn't mean the brewery is liable at all for the actions or presence of a dog. If a "service" animal is unreasonably disruptive and isn't controlled, it can still be ejected regardless of service status. The same thing goes if the animal isn't housebroken.

    There are no licenses or apparel required for service dogs, the products are mainly there to provide convenience in explaining (or mostly not having to explain) the presence of the animal.
  3. John_M

    John_M Poo-Bah (6,874) Oct 25, 2003 Oregon
    Moderator Society Trader

    "This doesn't mean the brewery is liable at all for the actions or presence of a dog. If a "service" animal is unreasonably disruptive and isn't controlled, it can still be ejected regardless of service status. The same thing goes if the animal isn't housebroken."

    This is exactly why there are lawsuits. None of these terms are exactly defined, which is why a bar or brewery owner ejects a service dog at his peril.

    In my job, we see a number of disability applicants, and increasingly many of them have "service animals." The advice we've received from counsel is to try to tolerate the behavior of any "service dog," no matter how egregious and/or disruptive. To date, that's included allowing sick animals, flea ridden dogs, and animals that appeared not to be house broken, into our hearing rooms.

    At all costs, if I was a brewery or pub, I would try to find some other way to get the owner and his dog to leave, short of telling them that I was not going to permit the continued presense of their animal in my brewery or pub, because their animal was too disruptive, wasn't house broken or wasn't properly controlled.
    #43 John_M, Jan 15, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
  4. dcbullet

    dcbullet Initiate (122) Dec 18, 2013 California

    I believe from anecdotal evidence that abuse of the service animal license is increasing. Typically, the animal is there for "emotional support" for their owner who has "anxiety." So I expect this issue to only increase in the future.

    I do bring my dog to wineries and breweries when they permit it. It makes for a great conversation starter with strangers and tires him out.
    Curb71 likes this.
  5. HeavySpeedway

    HeavySpeedway Initiate (0) Jul 8, 2013 California

    Just assuming for a second that the anxiety is real and the dog is really helping...

    This is a nice reason that having the dog in public, or in a store one really needs to visit (e.g. grocery). I don't think that is a good reason to have one in a restaurant.
  6. SDReaper

    SDReaper Defender (681) Aug 15, 2013 California

    This is why I usually bring a card game with me instead of my dog. He loves ppl but at times perhaps too much.
  7. ChazMania

    ChazMania Aspirant (210) Jun 13, 2006 California

    I love dogs. However, in the past year we have had 3 very unfortunate situations in public/bar environments with dogs. A year ago, at a local craft beer bar, a small dog lunged off its owners lap and bit a servers foot as she walked by (carrying food and drink that spilled all over including my son) dog owner said "i don't know what happened, my dog has never done that"- the server was really shaken up and the manager asked the people to leave. A few months later at a different place, my 5 year old son and I were walking to the bathroom and a medium sized dog went around the table he was sitting in front of and bit my son on his arm- it was terrible. Owner said "i don't know why that happened, my dog has never done that." It took a few months before my son was able to be around a dog. A few months ago we were out and another small child was bit by a larger shepard type dog, again owner replied with the my dog has never done this.
    The only common thing I noticed in these 3 scenarios is non of the dog owners had kids. So dog owners want to bring their dogs and I get it, and parents want to bring their kids and I get it but it does cause issues on both sides.
    thome50 likes this.
  8. SDReaper

    SDReaper Defender (681) Aug 15, 2013 California

    ^^ That above is reason why my girl and I basically, for lack of a better phrase, fuck with our dog. We have put down food and treats and taken them away. We have tugged a bit at his ears while he was growing up. Things a younger child might very well do (not saying yours did, just in general). At first we thought it was taunting our dog but then we kept it up and took him out many times to socialize with people of all ages.

    First thing that happened was a small child tugged at his ears, he just had a giant smile on his face and licked the child's hand.

    Key is to socialize the dog and also to teach it about odd behavior or even annoying behavior while they are young so that when it comes to it they understand that it was not offensive it any way but more an accident.

    Now of course when that first situation happened, after the parent of the child came over all frantic (assuming expecting my dog to react), she was relieved. And for it, my dog received an extra large treat and he got to stay up on the bed at night and fall asleep. Which is a big deal to him.
  9. Pecan

    Pecan Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2012 Arizona

    True for the first part, it isn't as clearly defined. For housebroken, that one is more defined. Unfortunately, there is a lot of gray area in this and a lot of other instances relating to laws in a brewery. Making choices that patrons don't like regarding the law can certainly be perilous, though this is unfortunately the situation.

    I agree with counsel and for the most part, if I were the brewery, would ask if it was a service dog. If yes, I'd try to tolerate it. If the animal was out of control and decided to eject, I would clearly state that the dog appears out of control due to xyz. I would then request that the owner attempt to regain control of their animal. If they do not and xyz continues, I would ask them to remove the animal from the premises due to a lack of effective action to control said animal and then very very clearly offer to fulfill any services to them without the presence of the uncontrolled animal. I would also have another employee present and everything on film if possible.

    Totally agree on that last part too. Refusal to serve more beer would make it pretty unlikely that someone would want to stay! Appearing to look drunk after a their first beer could be true... Though I'm not sure how people feel about fighting dishonesty with dishonesty. Meh.

    Actually, solely comfort or emotional support dogs don't qualify as service animals under the ADA... The people saying that is what their dog is "trained" for don't know the law and are very likely scamming, as the dog needs to be specifically trained for a certain work or task. I believe in California (going off of memory here, not going to look it up), false representation as a service animal is a misdemeanor and carries possible time and fines. Informing someone of these two things together generally makes people a LOT less confrontational.

    Not trying to be a jerk, but your opinion on good reasons doesn't matter when it comes to service dogs. It is a law to protect people with disabilities and the law has determined that having a service animal in a restaurant is a right. Again, I don't say that to be a jerk. I respect your opinion (and tend to agree to the extent that dog owners should just go to dog friendly restaurants), its just a whole new realm when we throw in protection of rights in an attempt to normalize the lives of disabled people.

    In all these cases, the dog owners are liable (and irresponsible). Designation as a service animal doesn't release liability of damage. Dog owners in these situations pretty much have no case if they wanted to fight the ejection, but people sue for anything. In fact, calling animal control could be warranted depending on the severity of the attacks.

    I think both groups, parents and dog owners, could find plenty of valid reasons to say the other doesn't NEED to bring them to the place. I don't think it is an issue of picking one or the other, but of each group taking responsibility for their little guests.
  10. HeavySpeedway

    HeavySpeedway Initiate (0) Jul 8, 2013 California

    Now wait just a minute here, and don't try to back out with "not trying to be a jerk". LOL

    I was talking not talking about service dogs and disabilities; I was limiting myself to the situation where the dog was there to provide anxiety support. If you are telling us that isn't a valid reason under the CA law, then my opinion applies to a non-existent scenario.

    I really don't care either way. I like dogs, and they generally like me. I'll let the restaurants/breweries/bars figure out what is best for them. I just don't like it when people bend the rules for their benefit, though to be honest I really haven't noticed that in any of the breweries or bars.
  11. MykelJH

    MykelJH Initiate (0) Aug 3, 2011 California

    Not a brewery but Toronado SF is dog friendly and if you go next door to Rosamunde's they will give you half a cut up hot dog for your dog as a treat.
  12. MichaelGV

    MichaelGV Initiate (0) Apr 2, 2008 California

    Like children!?
  13. Pecan

    Pecan Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2012 Arizona

    Haha, no really, I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I just recognized that it would read that way. In the same respect, my personal opinion on good reasons for bringing a dog doesn't matter when it comes to the ADA. Cheers and beers, friend! :slight_smile:

    Anxiety dogs are a weird issue in this law, as it then depends on the work or task the dog is trained to provide. Comfort and emotional support dogs don't qualify because their work or task is "to be there". They aren't really trained to perform. Anxiety dogs (often related to PTSD) that have been trained to do work or tasks during an anxiety attack still qualify though.

    My thoughts on bending the rules are situational. If it is a responsible owner who will handle their dog, I'm not really concerned. If not, it is frustrating for multiple reasons. Examples:

    A friend was traveling up to the Bruery from San Diego and had been told by the hotel that they were pet friendly. On arrival, the hotel changed their tune. Finding this out at 10pm, hours from home, and with dog in tow... She ended up bending the rules at the hotel and then at a restaurant because she needed to eat. The dog is the best behaved dog I know and she does a great job of maintaining control. Seems fine to me.

    Another friend has a rotty that is generally out of control. She took him to a beach fitness competition, where he pulled and tugged at her all day, went up to strangers, and continued his out of control lifestyle. He was only a nuisance that day fortunately. (Karma: She tried to use the "emotional comfort" reasoning when the lifeguards asked her to take the dog off of the beach. She also didn't know that the law requires a service dog to be leashed or otherwise controlled manually unless a specific reason necessitates verbal control. She didn't know the law and got ticketed... ) I'm not a fan of this one.
  14. dcbullet

    dcbullet Initiate (122) Dec 18, 2013 California

    This is really exactly my point. I don't know all the rules about it, but I do know there are many people taking their dogs into areas that typically would not allow dogs under the guise of the dog being a service dog when in reality they have no disability. It's a made up anxiety issue. I think it is BS.
  15. danscott

    danscott Initiate (0) Jul 15, 2006 California

    In California, it is a weird issue.

    Under federal ADA, you are allowed to ask "Is that a service animal?" and "What service does it provide?" without any fear of repercussions. If you go beyond that, you might be at risk of being accused of discrimination.

    CA does not require registration or identification at the state level, but creates these regs at the county level. So, in SF for example, service animals are registered through SF Animal Care & Control.

    To be simple... anyone who has a legitimate service animal is going to have the damn thing clearly identified as such and will have it registered with the county or, at a bare minimum, have a doctor's note, but that is even a bit ridiculous IMO. If you have a genuine medical need for a service animal, you are damn sure to have it registered because you don't want there to be any question that you are required to have it. As soon as you ask a legitimate service animal user about their animal, they will show you the county issued license. If you don't have it registered, then I am not going to believe you. But booting someone for this reason opens you up to accusations of discrimination.

    It is a misdemeanor to lie about your service animal, so a cop is allowed to question an individual about their service animal without repercussion.

    So. If it comes down to it, don't screw with someone who you think has a fraudulent service animal, but get a cop to evaluate the situation if it becomes necessary because the animal poses a risk for you, your business or guests.
  16. Purpleman

    Purpleman Initiate (0) Jan 2, 2014 California

    let me rephrase, The bond/love some dog owners have with/for their dog, is close or equal to the bond/love people have with their children.
  17. Curb71

    Curb71 Initiate (0) Oct 22, 2012 California

    Really? I was thinking about stopping there on my way back from RR for FfaC and called and the guy that answered the phone literally went crazy and cussed out my girlfriend and hung up on her for simply asking if they were dog friendly. I called him back and chewed his ass out but he told me about how he was in charge and they got a big fine for having pets where food is served and he didn't know he couldn't do that. After I explained to him that his ignorance is not an excuse and I had nothing to do with him getting fined he apologized for being a nut job. Still haven't been there...
    TL-DR. I was informed dogs are not allowed at Toronado SF.
  18. MykelJH

    MykelJH Initiate (0) Aug 3, 2011 California

    Toronado SF does not serve food and I am there quite often. I bring my dog all the time. Toro SF most definitely allows dogs. SD does not and I havent been to Seattle yet.
    Curb71 likes this.
  19. dcbullet

    dcbullet Initiate (122) Dec 18, 2013 California

    You shouldn't be surprised at whatever nuttiness you encounter in SF. They bend over backwards for whichever group happens to be important on that particular day.
  20. sportstsar

    sportstsar Initiate (162) Jan 23, 2012 District of Columbia

  21. wethorseblanket

    wethorseblanket Initiate (0) Dec 12, 2008 California

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