Brewing tables from 1867-1871.

Discussion in 'Germany' started by Crusader, May 18, 2014.

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  1. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
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    I'd like to see a quote from the 1870's that says the colour was amber.
     
    #61 patto1ro, Aug 15, 2014
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  2. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
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    But again (our annual dance about the terminology), where do you draw the line at Märzen as a process to Märzen as a "style?" It's well understood that the process of brewing a beer in March to last thru the non-brewing months was common procedure before refrigeration (so yes -- dark beers would have had a Märzen brewed version too), but when did the term get applied to the beer after it wasn't a necessary process?

    The assumption that the beer being brewed by Sedlmayr was "amber," (and try to actually define amber,* even today) is because it is known he was influenced by Dreher, who was trying to brew a beer akin to paler beers from England -- paler than the more popular darker beers, that is -- so also try to define "pale."

    *Yesterday I had a Paulaner Oktoberfest Märzen that was copper-brown in color; no red tones or highlights -- not at all gold, or amber, or even "dunkel," but you can bet a lot of people would consider it amber.
     
    #62 steveh, Aug 15, 2014
  3. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
    Pooh-Bah

    By the 1870's Märzen was a sort of style. It didn't really mean a beer brewed in March, but a beer of a certain strength. I've recently written about Vienna beer of the 1870's:

    http://barclayperkins.blogspot.nl/2014/08/vienna-lagers-in-1870s.html

    It also includes colour numbers for different types of beer.

    One point in the favour of it being influenced by Dreher's beer, is that his Lager was briefly all the rage in the late 1860's and early 1870's. But Märzen had been brewed in Bavaria long before then. It wasn't particularly associated with Vienna or an amber colour.

    If the beer was such a different colour to other Munich beers, there should be some contemporary references to that somewhere. Shouldn't there?
     
    #63 patto1ro, Aug 15, 2014
  4. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    This and the fact that Sedlmayer and Dreher often worked together.

    I completely understand and agree with that, it's what I mean by Märzen being more of a process than a style. All beer brewed in March was, technically, Märzen. It's that evolution of the use of the term that blurs.

    I would tend to agree, but is there anything to the (full) contrary either?

    Also, from where has all this talk of Sedlmayer's "new beer" evolved? Hearsay? (no sarcasm there, serious question) Are there 1872 records from Spaten or Franziskaner that we can access?

    But I'll also reiterate: try to actually define amber, even today.
     
    #64 steveh, Aug 15, 2014
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  5. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
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    There is this article from 1872:

    "Versuche über die Conservirung des Bieres für den Seetransport nach dem Velten'schen Erwärmungsverfahren; von Oscar Knab, Brauereitechniker in den Brauereien von Jos. Sedlmayer in München."

    "Attempts at conserving beer for sea transport by the Veltenian heating procedure, by Oscar Knab, brewery technician at the breweries of Josef Sedlmayer in Munich".

    Zu diesem Versuche wurden sechs Champagnerflaschen mit dem gleichen Biere (Märzenbier nach Wiener Art, welches den 23. Januar 1871 gefaßt wurde) gefüllt,

    "For this attempt six champagne bottles were filled with the same beer (Märzenbier in the Vienna-style, which was put in barrels on the 23rd of January 1871)..."
     
    #65 Crusader, Aug 15, 2014
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  6. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Interesting. The year before he introduced his beer at the Fest. I think we're uncovering more this season than we've ever found in years past -- very exciting. Thanks to Crusader and Ron.
     
    #66 steveh, Aug 15, 2014
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  7. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
    Pooh-Bah

    It's a different Sedlmayr that was mates with Dreher. Gabriel the something - was it II or III?

    I don't know if brewing records exist. If they do, I'd love to take a look. Just like I'd like to see the unpublished biography of Gabriel Sedlmayr that's in an archive in Munich.

    But, you know guys, I can't do all the research by myself. I've been trying quite hard to, but realise I only have one lifetime. I'm setting priorities now.

    I'd love to know what colour the first Oktoberfest Märzen was. I've still not seen any proper evidence.
     
    #67 patto1ro, Aug 15, 2014
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  8. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
    Pooh-Bah

    That's a proper bit of evidence. Intriguing.
     
    #68 patto1ro, Aug 15, 2014
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  9. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Right, the son Josef of Gabriel 2, brother of 3 -- generational hand-off.

    Intriguing.
     
    #69 steveh, Aug 15, 2014
  10. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Let's say the wedding of Crown Prince Ludwig and Princess Therese in 1810 wasn't officially sanctioned "The Oktoberfest." But in 1811, when it was decided there needed to be another Autumn party and they christened it the Fest, the beer poured probably would have been a Märzen anyway -- in process as well as strength. And history tells us it probably would have been the favorite beer of the land (at that time), no? So I'd guess it was dunkel braun.

    Whether or not they actually called it an Oktoberfest Bier is probably a bigger debate! :grinning:
     
    #70 steveh, Aug 15, 2014
  11. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
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    In the table found in the article the alcohol and extract content of the beer is listed. The A beers were put through the heating procedure whilst the B beers were not (both A and B beers were then kept in a heated room with temperatures shifting between 20 and 15 degrees celcius). The C beer was the Märzenbier that was kept in the sommerbierkeller for reference purposes. The 4.276 abw and 6.536 extract of that beer would translate into an estimated original gravity of 15% (by using the old rule of thumb of doubling the abw and then adding the remaining extract) with an abv of 5.3%.
     
    #71 Crusader, Aug 15, 2014
  12. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Got home tonight and cracked a Sprecher Oktoberfest and after this afternoon's discussion it was probably the best Oktoberfest I've ever had! :slight_smile:
     
    #72 steveh, Aug 15, 2014
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  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I had my first Firestone Walker Oaktoberfest on draft earlier this evening. A very high quality Oktoberfest beer!!

    Cheers to Firestone Walker for making this beer!
     
    #73 JackHorzempa, Aug 16, 2014
  14. patto1ro

    patto1ro Pooh-Bah (2,084) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
    Pooh-Bah

    I'm really enjoying this discussion. Been expanding my knowledge.
     
    #74 patto1ro, Aug 16, 2014
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  15. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    A couple of interesting notes from letters from Carl and JC Jacobsen.

    From Carl in 1868 (after visiting both Dreher at Klein Schwechater and Sedlmayr in Munich):

    "The Munich beer is a bit darker than the Viennesse's Märzen. (The export beer, which you have seen in Copenhagen) but the difference is only minor. It has apparently been darker in the past. No burnt malt what so ever was used for it."

    From JC in the same year replying to Carl's letter:
    "Sedelmayr's malting has changed since my time I see. At that time it only lasted for five days and the sprouts only became half the lenght of the kernel. He "dried off" at a high temperature, but not as high as now and yet the beer was pretty brown."
     
    #75 Crusader, Aug 23, 2014
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  16. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    I found another note from one of JC Jacobsen's letters from 1869 to be interesting enough to quote here:

    "Sales of my beer is going very rapidly and I will therefore continue brewing into the next month and similarly continue with the malting as long as possible. Before I stop brewing I want to, as I wrote to Theilmann, make a couple of brews of Bavarian beer from 15% wort and with a little less hops than usual and with dry hops in the lager barrels to bring it more into agreement with the taste of the English."
     
    #76 Crusader, Aug 25, 2014
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  17. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    I thought this article from Der Spiegel from 1949 was of some interest:

    "Die jüngere Generation sieht das richtige Märzenbier zum ersten Male. Es ist eine Mischung zwischen hell und dunkel. "Wiener Farbe" nennen das die Münchner Brauer. Bei 13,5 Prozent zeigt der Durchschnittstrinker nach der dritten Maß Wirkung."

    "The younger generation sees the real Märzenbier for the first time. It is a mixture between pale and dark. "Vienna color" the Munich brewer calls it. At 13.5 percent the effect shows itself on the average drinker after the third mass."
     
    #77 Crusader, Sep 10, 2014
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  18. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I'm disappointed that there are no pictures from the day. I wonder what the Wies'n looked like in '49. Hopefully not too depressing.
     
    #78 steveh, Sep 10, 2014
  19. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,725) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah

    I found this video from 1956 which is a short film about the Oktoberfest and apart from showing other parts of the Oktoberfest there are some shots that include beer glasses (all of which appear to be Löwenbräu branded glasses) at these marks:
    1:48
    2:38
    4:45
    9:06
    9:35
     
    #79 Crusader, Sep 15, 2014
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  20. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    In color no less -- nice, and all of those clay Krugs!

    This one is interesting too.
     
    #80 steveh, Sep 15, 2014
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